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Penny1959
03-08-2012, 07:33 AM
As promised.

In the end I decided to rewrite both - as I realised the letter / form I use are as a result of lots of discussion and bits in my newsletter - and so my parents knew what I was on about!


Anyway - please use / change / ignore as suits you.

I hope helps - even if only as a starting point

Penny :)

QualityCare
03-08-2012, 07:38 AM
Thank you Penny brilliant letters, l will use them as and when needed.

Kiddleywinks
03-08-2012, 07:41 AM
THANK YOU PENNY! :thumbsup:

I have been trying to word a similar document and converting the document into 'simple' terms has had me running round the houses pulling my hair out (got it down to 2 and a half pages from the original 4):laughing: :laughing:

flowerpots
03-08-2012, 07:42 AM
Thank you Penny. xxxx

pillows
03-08-2012, 07:56 AM
Thanks very much Penny, as I employ an assistant I guess it would be ok for me to word the letter 'when working by myself'

As I never need to increase when working with an assistant anyway .

Many thanks
caz:jump for joy:

Penny1959
03-08-2012, 07:59 AM
Thanks very much Penny, as I employ an assistant I guess it would be ok for me to word the letter 'when working by myself'

As I never need to increase when working with an assistant anyway .

Many thanks
caz:jump for joy:

Yes good point - and it might be worth adding a bit about applying an exception if assistant ill.


Penny :)

marnieb
03-08-2012, 08:05 AM
Penny,


You are a STAR!!!!!!!!!




Thank you so much!!!!


:clapping:

pillows
03-08-2012, 08:07 AM
Yes good point - and it might be worth adding a bit about applying an exception if assistant ill.


Penny :)

Ah that's a good point too !! thank you :littleangel: x

Katiekoo
03-08-2012, 08:35 AM
Brilliant thank you!
I may consider applying an exception if an existing child wants to increase days that would overlap with another existing child, as I understand it this would be allowable in the new EYFS (am I right???!!!). Could I add -
(apart from to allow twins or siblings to be cared for together, or for existing customers to increase days,
and
or if she has another child)
No plans but I might!!!

cherry
03-08-2012, 08:42 AM
Thank you soooo much Penny :)

JCrakers
03-08-2012, 08:45 AM
Thanks Penny,

I'm feeling swamped down by my accreditation paperwork and this is much, much appreciated :D

:thumbsup:

Penny1959
03-08-2012, 08:57 AM
Brilliant thank you!
I may consider applying an exception if an existing child wants to increase days that would overlap with another existing child, as I understand it this would be allowable in the new EYFS (am I right???!!!). Could I add -
(apart from to allow twins or siblings to be cared for together, or for existing customers to increase days,
and
or if she has another child)
No plans but I might!!!

Yes change as you want to - it is very important that you decide on the wording so that it is applicable to your setting.

I can only suggest - not even advise as it is not my decision


Penny :)

sarah707
03-08-2012, 09:00 AM
Brilliant thank you!
I may consider applying an exception if an existing child wants to increase days that would overlap with another existing child, as I understand it this would be allowable in the new EYFS (am I right???!!!). Could I add -
(apart from to allow twins or siblings to be cared for together, or for existing customers to increase days,
and
or if she has another child)
No plans but I might!!!

Yes, it's all about being flexible for continuity of care :D

sarah707
03-08-2012, 09:04 AM
Yay Penny thank you I know that will help a lot of people :clapping:

PixiePetal
03-08-2012, 09:05 AM
Thanks Penny, I have been trying to write my own and not doing very well - trying to say enough without waffling on :rolleyes: story of my life :laughing:

I now have 2 siblings on mon and tues and 2 different siblings on wed and thurs (all EYFS) so this could allow me to overlap a child if one family needs an extra day or asks to swap a day one week as sometimes happens. I think they would all get on well :thumbsup:

Mouse
03-08-2012, 09:58 AM
Thank you Penny.

I'm really pleased this is happening. I only mind EY children. They are all part timers and all know each other. They're all here with each other at various times during the week. I've often had a parent ask if I can do an extra day and I've had to apply to ofsted each time and get a new certificate each time, often just for a day. I've got loads of them!
This is going to give me and the parents the flexibility we need without all the red tape :thumbsup:

mushpea
03-08-2012, 10:08 AM
thats brilliant thankyou Penny, worded much better then my one!
can I just ask do if we give a letter like yours to the parents now do we sill need to do one for each individual variation or does this cover all.

moggy
03-08-2012, 10:13 AM
Thank you for that, good to bring it to people's minds, I hadn't taken any action about it until now.

To keep things neat in future (rather than having policies, permissions and this letter for all future parents to sign), do you think it makes sense for me to make this into new policy in my policy folder (parents sign agreement to all policies anyway) and then add a note to my permissions sheet too to cover it? (and get current parents to sign too)... I was trying to cut down on policies but maybe this is a necessary one???
Would be interested to hear if anyone else is going to deal with it this way?

tashaleee
03-08-2012, 11:29 AM
Thanks for sharing - must admin I hadnt even thought of that one yet! am trying to start to get as much as I can in order before September so im 'ready to go' :thumbsup:

Smiley
03-08-2012, 11:39 AM
Thanks Penny :clapping:

diamond
03-08-2012, 12:17 PM
Thanks Penny :):):)

Penny1959
03-08-2012, 12:46 PM
thats brilliant thankyou Penny, worded much better then my one!
can I just ask do if we give a letter like yours to the parents now do we sill need to do one for each individual variation or does this cover all.

It is up to you - I will not be doing one each time - if it something like a sibling starting I will put it in my newsletter - if emergency - just verbal or text.

However we all run our settings differently ans so will all approach this differently as well.

Penny :)

onceinabluemoon
03-08-2012, 06:27 PM
Thank you Penny, they look fab and just what I need. I've so much to do in the next 4 weeks I'm really beginning to panic so this is well received (not all CM stuff), and I'm grateful thanks :)

cathtee
03-08-2012, 07:54 PM
Thanks Penny, I too forgot about that one, will be getting up to speed when I get back from hols in 2 weeks:)

mumof4
03-08-2012, 09:19 PM
Thanks Penny, thats so helpful :D

miffy
04-08-2012, 07:21 AM
Thank you Penny, both documents are a great help

Miffy xx

Bluebell
04-08-2012, 08:35 AM
Hi Penny can I just ask - it sounds lile you 'inform' your parents rather than ask their permission - do you just tell them then or do you get them to sign an acknowledgment of some kind?

ajc
04-08-2012, 09:55 AM
Thank you :)

Penny1959
04-08-2012, 12:46 PM
Hi Penny can I just ask - it sounds lile you 'inform' your parents rather than ask their permission - do you just tell them then or do you get them to sign an acknowledgment of some kind?

Yes I have already 'informed' them - in my case by verbal conversation and information in my newsletter. Then a letter and form to sign.

In my case I suppose it is a bit different to some because I already have a variation for 2 children -so discussions about how I meet all children's needs were had well before this - in fact almost a year ago when I applied for the variation.

However my view is that this is my business - ans I consider it important to be able to offer flexibility to ALL parents using my childminding service to ensure continuity of care

So point one - All parents may request a change of or additional hours or days . If a parents was not happy about this then I am not the right childminder for them (same as I am not the right childminder for a parent who does not want me to own dogs).

Point two - I personally do not think it right that a parent could stop another parent from requesting a continuity of care request - what if one parent did not like another parent or their child - that could be discrimination. Therefore by informing them of my intentions, I am removing that potential.

Point three - It is my decision if I consider I can meet all the children's needs - or not. The parents can not make that decision. It is my registration, my reputation, my grade and my business at risk - the parents have to trust me on this (the same as they trust me to keep their child safe and meet their child's needs all day every day)

Of course parents must be told of the impact on their child - for example if their child will be required to walk more as not enough pushchair space - but it is up to me to reassure the parent that I have though about all potential impacts and have put into place measures so each child's needs are met.

Personally I think if a parent disagrees which my assessment of the situation = then we will need to sit down for a good chat about this - and if we can reach a compromise then I or the parent will need to give notice.

I am in my opinion meeting the requirement of the revised EYFS - partnership workin id a two way process

Penny :)

mushpea
04-08-2012, 01:19 PM
when we inform parents of a variation verbally or in writing do we need to put the age of the extra child? I am asuming we cant put the childs name down for confidentiality although it wont be hard for the parent to work out who the extra one is of course.
I was just going to put somthing like

' Inline with ofsteds regulations this is to inform you that as of the (date) my rations on xxdays will change from 3 under 5's to 4 under 5s. As perviously discussed in my policy all your childs needs will still be met. should you need to discuss this matter further please let me know and we can arrange a convinent time for both of us.
thanks'

would somthing like this be ok for when we actutualy have the variation request?

Winnie
04-08-2012, 03:38 PM
any chance someone could put it in Word pretty please....i can not open docx :(

sarah707
04-08-2012, 03:48 PM
Point two - I personally do not think it right that a parent could stop another parent from requesting a continuity of care request - what if one parent did not like another parent or their child - that could be discrimination. Therefore by informing them of my intentions, I am removing that potential.

Penny :)

Can I advise caution please.

Some local authorities (mine included) are telling childminders that if one parent / family refuses permission for the childminder to change the conditions of their registration then they must not go through with the change.

I know we are self employed before you all jump on me... but my LA are not the only ones putting their own rules in place about this one!!

Hth :D

Bluebell
04-08-2012, 04:51 PM
Point three - It is my decision if I consider I can meet all the children's needs - or not. The parents can not make that decision. It is my registration, my reputation, my grade and my business at risk - the parents have to trust me on this (the same as they trust me to keep their child safe and meet their child's needs all day every day)

Personally I think if a parent disagrees which my assessment of the situation = then we will need to sit down for a good chat about this - and if we can reach a compromise then I or the parent will need to give notice.


Penny :)

I agree with you - it echoes what I wrote on the thread about asking parents permission except how you write is much better and makes much more sense

"are we asking their permission and getting them to consent or are we simply 'informing' them.
I think it has to be somewhere in between - we are informing them but giving them enough information that they can understand why we ave made the decision.
I would hope they would respect the person that cares for their child and trust them enough to make an important decision like this without refusing to agree but if they express concerns that the person is taking on too much then as a minder perhaps we should take note - particulalry those who are perhaps going to get carried away with the new exceptions!

I have been thinking about it and think I will send a letter stating reasons and the whys and wherefores but making it very clear that they can discuss with me any concerns. And having read above about proving that parents have been informed I will have a copy of the letter that I would get all parents to sign - giving oppotunty at that time to discuss it."

Penny1959
04-08-2012, 05:07 PM
Can I advise caution please.

Some local authorities (mine included) are telling childminders that if one parent / family refuses permission for the childminder to change the conditions of their registration then they must not go through with the change.

I know we are self employed before you all jump on me... but my LA are not the only ones putting their own rules in place about this one!!

Hth :D

Sarah is right to urge caution - LA's can put their own conditions in if you are getting any sort of funding - but it is our choice if you continue to accept that funding and abide by the rules or not accept it and therefore not abide by the rules.

It is also possible that those LA's have misunderstood the intention of the wording about parents in the EYFS - it says in 3.40 'IF a childminder can demonstrate to parents and inspectors .....' so that is demonstrate not ask permission. In example one on the fact sheet http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/resources/factsheet-childcare-numbers-and-ages-of-children-providers-early-years-and-childcare-registers-may-c

it says 'consult with parent'.
In the email I had from ofsted it say 'inform parents;
In my opinion - demonstrate, consult and inform do not mean ask permission. So I am not sure where LA's have the idea that 'need permission' from parents

LA's are also very good at making 'suggested good practice' sound like 'must do' - so if you think your LA is suggesting must do - and you are not sure - then challenge.

I have challenge my LA about their pathway profile - seemed to be a must do - but when challenged they said no they meant good practice - and they would LIKE providers to use it

Also challenged them on the requirement to renew level 3 safeguarding every two years - again they backed down and said oh they meant good practice to renew after 2 years - actual 'must do' is every three years.

Of course sometimes it is not worth the hassle of challenging them and sometimes their funding / help is worth 'towing the line'

Penny :)

Bluebell
04-08-2012, 05:21 PM
Have just managed to open the document by coming on my computer (can't open it on my netbook)Thanks so much for giving us the example letter especially as I realise now that in my letter I have emphasised it is for existing children only and not new business - which of course if it is twins is not the case!!

Can I just confirm - twins can be given one place but can siblings also be given one place? I thought that was for an established child whose parents at a later date wanted holiday care for a pre-schooler or care for a new baby? Can it be for new business too?

Penny1959
04-08-2012, 05:37 PM
Have just managed to open the document by coming on my computer (can't open it on my netbook)Thanks so much for giving us the example letter especially as I realise now that in my letter I have emphasised it is for existing children only and not new business - which of course if it is twins is not the case!!

Can I just confirm - twins can be given one place but can siblings also be given one place? I thought that was for an established child whose parents at a later date wanted holiday care for a pre-schooler or care for a new baby? Can it be for new business too?

My understanding is that it will be pretty much as it is now.

At the moment - If you have a request to care for twins but only have one place you can currently put in for a variation - and usually this would be granted (unless some other restriction on your registration) so of course that is new business. I think this will still be the case so you could grant yourself an exception.

However my understanding is that under EYFS 12 Ofsted would not accept it if you already had your normal under fives - and then took on twins - as you don't even have one place.

However just to make it confusing - if you have your normal 3 under 5, one of the mums then has twins (so siblings of existing mindee) - you could take on the twins - provided of course you meet all other requirements of EYFS including not exceeding 6 under 8 years.

It is confusing - but I think I have grasped it now (at least I hope so)

Penny :)

Chatterbox Childcare
04-08-2012, 05:41 PM
Thanks Penny - I will use this as a basis too

1 minor thought - on the acknowledgement letter it states that "I will not take anymore children on" and this in itself may cause problems as I will take more on as some leave and also over the age of 8. I can change this but thought I would highlight it in case others hadn't thought about it

Thanks again for your work

Penny1959
04-08-2012, 05:47 PM
Thanks Penny - I will use this as a basis too

1 minor thought - on the acknowledgement letter it states that "I will not take anymore children on" and this in itself may cause problems as I will take more on as some leave and also over the age of 8. I can change this but thought I would highlight it in case others hadn't thought about it

Thanks again for your work

Yes that is a good point - and of course each of us must adapt as needed to fit our own circumstances.

Thanks for highlighting it.

I have to admit to writing both documents in a hurry on Friday morning - and to it being very hard to cover all possible scenario's - so I am glad that some people are finding it useful - and that some are mentioning bits that others may need to consider

Penny :)

Bluebell
04-08-2012, 05:53 PM
My understanding is that it will be pretty much as it is now.

At the moment - If you have a request to care for twins but only have one place you can currently put in for a variation - and usually this would be granted (unless some other restriction on your registration) so of course that is new business. I think this will still be the case so you could grant yourself an exception.

However my understanding is that under EYFS 12 Ofsted would not accept it if you already had your normal under fives - and then took on twins - as you don't even have one place.

However just to make it confusing - if you have your normal 3 under 5, one of the mums then has twins (so siblings of existing mindee) - you could take on the twins - provided of course you meet all other requirements of EYFS including not exceeding 6 under 8 years.

It is confusing - but I think I have grasped it now (at least I hope so)

Penny :)

Hi Penny Sorry didn't explain myself very well there :blush:

- what I mean is if there is ONE space can I take on two new children if they are siblings but NOT twins? I don't know what the ruling on current variations on this is because I have never had to look into it!!

Thank you

Penny1959
04-08-2012, 07:54 PM
Hi Penny Sorry didn't explain myself very well there :blush:

- what I mean is if there is ONE space can I take on two new children if they are siblings but NOT twins? I don't know what the ruling on current variations on this is because I have never had to look into it!!

Thank you

Sorry - did not read properly

So again I think it will be as now (but remember this is just my personal understanding)

The answer is yes to siblings - provided there is a very good reason why using you - such as no one else offers the times that parent needs, or maybe you speak their language, or provide transport to from home etc.- in other words they could not find anywhere else that met their needs

In all cases - it should be exceptional not the norm - and you certainly could not advertise that able to take on siblings when only have one place

Hope I have explained that ok - if not ask again :D

Penny :)

Bluebell
04-08-2012, 08:28 PM
many thanks, much clearer!

cas2805
04-08-2012, 10:05 PM
A big thanks from me too x

mayberry
05-08-2012, 05:41 AM
Thank you Penny :)

Dawn xx

christine e
05-08-2012, 06:20 AM
Hi Penny Sorry didn't explain myself very well there :blush:

- what I mean is if there is ONE space can I take on two new children if they are siblings but NOT twins? I don't know what the ruling on current variations on this is because I have never had to look into it!!

Thank you

I would interpret this as a No. It is my understanding that the 'rule' for twins only applies to babies in that if a parent approached you to care for twins aged 6 months and you were currently caring for a 2 year old you could grant yourself a variation to care for more than one child aged under 1. If you were caring for two 2 year olds and a parent came along with twins under 1 then I interpret that you should say no because it is new business and caring for the twins would take you over the 3 under 5's, if the twins were siblings of one of the 2 year olds then it could be a Yes. So if you have one space and a parent comes along with siblings even if they are twins I interpret that it should be a NO.

Penny1959
05-08-2012, 07:27 AM
I would interpret this as a No. It is my understanding that the 'rule' for twins only applies to babies in that if a parent approached you to care for twins aged 6 months and you were currently caring for a 2 year old you could grant yourself a variation to care for more than one child aged under 1. If you were caring for two 2 year olds and a parent came along with twins under 1 then I interpret that you should say no because it is new business and caring for the twins would take you over the 3 under 5's, if the twins were siblings of one of the 2 year olds then it could be a Yes. So if you have one space and a parent comes along with siblings even if they are twins I interpret that it should be a NO.

It is interesting that we all read the same thing differently

I use the following sentence from the Ofsted guidance sheet

We will normally interpret an exceptional circumstance as relating to the continuity of care for children and/or where sibling children are not babies.

It does not say can not relate to new business - it says or when sibling children are not babies. I read this to say if siblings need to stay together then you can apply a exception.

I also refer to the email I had from Ofsted where it says that Ofsted intend to retain the same flexibility as now - and I have personally been granted variations in the past to :- care for siblings that were new business and I only had one space, and to take on a cousin of a current child even though I did not have a space at that time.

Of course it is expected that we would return to normal ratio's as soon as possible - and part of our decision making has to be about how long this exception will be needed.

However Christine has raised a very important point - we must all be certain that we are happy that we are meet all the requirements of the EYFS 12. In this case Christine would not e happy that she was meeting them so would not apply an exception in these circumstances. I would be happy (confiden) that I was - so I would apply an exception. Bluelion (and everyone else) must ensure that they are PERSONALLY sure that they are meeting all the requirements of EYFS 12 before applying an exception.

At the end of the day - it is our own decision -not that of me, Sarah or anyone else on the forum, of our development worker or any other advisor - or indeed of Ofsted (although of course Ofsted will act if we have made the wrong decision) - so as it is our own 'head on the block' we must be sure

Penny :)

christine e
05-08-2012, 07:59 AM
It is interesting that we all read the same thing differently

I use the following sentence from the Ofsted guidance sheet

We will normally interpret an exceptional circumstance as relating to the continuity of care for children and/or where sibling children are not babies.

It does not say can not relate to new business - it says or when sibling children are not babies. I read this to say if siblings need to stay together then you can apply a exception.

I also refer to the email I had from Ofsted where it says that Ofsted intend to retain the same flexibility as now - and I have personally been granted variations in the past to :- care for siblings that were new business and I only had one space, and to take on a cousin of a current child even though I did not have a space at that time.

Of course it is expected that we would return to normal ratio's as soon as possible - and part of our decision making has to be about how long this exception will be needed.

However Christine has raised a very important point - we must all be certain that we are happy that we are meet all the requirements of the EYFS 12. In this case Christine would not e happy that she was meeting them so would not apply an exception in these circumstances. I would be happy (confiden) that I was - so I would apply an exception. Bluelion (and everyone else) must ensure that they are PERSONALLY sure that they are meeting all the requirements of EYFS 12 before applying an exception.

At the end of the day - it is our own decision -not that of me, Sarah or anyone else on the forum, of our development worker or any other advisor - or indeed of Ofsted (although of course Ofsted will act if we have made the wrong decision) - so as it is our own 'head on the block' we must be sure

Penny :)

Hi Penny

I have taken the exert

1.Paragraph 3.29 in the EYFS also allows childminders to care for more children in the early years age group through an overarching ‘exceptional circumstances’ statement. We will normally interpret an exceptional circumstance as relating to the continuity of care for children and/or where sibling children are not babies. These are times where it may be in children’s best interests to be with their brothers and sisters who are already with a childminder, or to remain with the same childminder where circumstances may change the number of children the childminder can care for, such as a parent extending their working hours. This type of arrangement would end when either the parent adjusted their hours or a child left the childminder’s care. It does not give the permission to operate with more children in the early years age group at all times.


Re the bit in bold it states where their brothers and sisters are already with a childminder.

I really believe this whole variation situation is going to get totally out of hand when it is down to each individuals interpretation and of course Ofsted Inspector's interpretations!

Penny1959
05-08-2012, 09:34 AM
Hi Penny

I have taken the exert

1.Paragraph 3.29 in the EYFS also allows childminders to care for more children in the early years age group through an overarching ‘exceptional circumstances’ statement. We will normally interpret an exceptional circumstance as relating to the continuity of care for children and/or where sibling children are not babies. These are times where it may be in children’s best interests to be with their brothers and sisters who are already with a childminder, or to remain with the same childminder where circumstances may change the number of children the childminder can care for, such as a parent extending their working hours. This type of arrangement would end when either the parent adjusted their hours or a child left the childminder’s care. It does not give the permission to operate with more children in the early years age group at all times.


Re the bit in bold it states where their brothers and sisters are already with a childminder.

I really believe this whole variation situation is going to get totally out of hand when it is down to each individuals interpretation and of course Ofsted Inspector's interpretations!

I agree completely with you on that point Christine - it will be a mess.
Everyone will apply own understanding - and even if done completely above board and without any intention to break conditions of registrations - and only to meet the needs of parents - may come unstuck.

I can see that some will decide it is just not worth the risk and will never apply an exception - just in case

And then there will be those who will just take on more children without even trying to understand the 'rules' - just to bring in more income.

Oh and to be clear re taking on siblings when only have one place - as stated in my reply to Bluelion - this should only be considered if parents can not find the specific care they need elsewhere - and should not be done without considering all other requirements of EYFS 12

Penny :)

catminder
05-08-2012, 09:46 AM
Thank you Penny, that is really helpful

Alison x

christine e
05-08-2012, 09:58 AM
Hi Penny

I have taken the exert

1.Paragraph 3.29 in the EYFS also allows childminders to care for more children in the early years age group through an overarching ‘exceptional circumstances’ statement. We will normally interpret an exceptional circumstance as relating to the continuity of care for children and/or where sibling children are not babies. These are times where it may be in children’s best interests to be with their brothers and sisters who are already with a childminder, or to remain with the same childminder where circumstances may change the number of children the childminder can care for, such as a parent extending their working hours. This type of arrangement would end when either the parent adjusted their hours or a child left the childminder’s care. It does not give the permission to operate with more children in the early years age group at all times.


Re the bit in bold it states where their brothers and sisters are already with a childminder.

I really believe this whole variation situation is going to get totally out of hand when it is down to each individuals interpretation and of course Ofsted Inspector's interpretations!

I agree completely with you on that point Christine - it will be a mess.
Everyone will apply own understanding - and even if done completely above board and without any intention to break conditions of registrations - and only to meet the needs of parents - may come unstuck.

I can see that some will decide it is just not worth the risk and will never apply an exception - just in case

And then there will be those who will just take on more children without even trying to understand the 'rules' - just to bring in more income.

Oh and to be clear re taking on siblings when only have one place - as stated in my reply to Bluelion - this should only be considered if parents can not find the specific care they need elsewhere - and should not be done without considering all other requirements of EYFS 12

Penny :)

So where does it say that you could take on siblings as new business if you only have one place? - I am not being picky I just want to understand it

sarah707
05-08-2012, 10:11 AM
[QUOTE=Penny1959;1138558]

So where does it say that you could take on siblings as new business if you only have one place? - I am not being picky I just want to understand it

I have no idea on this one Christine - it is not a rule I have heard of.

It's not in the EYFS or in any of the literature I have received from / conversations I have had with Ofsted.

Someone did ask me about whether twins take up 1 or 2 spaces and I checked with Ofsted and the answer was clear - each child is unique and takes up 1 space.

I think Penny means if you are asked to care (on different days - for continuity of care) for sibling babies and the babies are twins and you have space in your under 5s ratios then you can take them both on.... but I might be wrong.

Hth :D

christine e
05-08-2012, 10:31 AM
[QUOTE=christine e;1138561]

I have no idea on this one Christine - it is not a rule I have heard of.

It's not in the EYFS or in any of the literature I have received from / conversations I have had with Ofsted.

Someone did ask me about whether twins take up 1 or 2 spaces and I checked with Ofsted and the answer was clear - each child is unique and takes up 1 space.

I think Penny means if you are asked to care (on different days - for continuity of care) for sibling babies and the babies are twins and you have space in your under 5s ratios then you can take them both on.... but I might be wrong.

Hth :D

Getting a bit confusing with all these quotes :panic: been back and checked on posts and Bluelion asked 'could she take on two new children who were siblings but not twins' and below is Penny's reply

Sorry - did not read properly

So again I think it will be as now (but remember this is just my personal understanding)

The answer is yes to siblings - provided there is a very good reason why using you - such as no one else offers the times that parent needs, or maybe you speak their language, or provide transport to from home etc.- in other words they could not find anywhere else that met their needs

In all cases - it should be exceptional not the norm - and you certainly could not advertise that able to take on siblings when only have one place

Hope I have explained that ok - if not ask again

Penny

I would say NO because this is new business - but we all seem to be interpreting things differently!

Winnie
05-08-2012, 12:41 PM
any chance someone could put it in Word pretty please....i can not open docx :(

bumpety bump :o

Chimps Childminding
05-08-2012, 12:51 PM
[QUOTE=sarah707;1138567]

Getting a bit confusing with all these quotes :panic: been back and checked on posts and Bluelion asked 'could she take on two new children who were siblings but not twins' and below is Penny's reply

Sorry - did not read properly

So again I think it will be as now (but remember this is just my personal understanding)

The answer is yes to siblings - provided there is a very good reason why using you - such as no one else offers the times that parent needs, or maybe you speak their language, or provide transport to from home etc.- in other words they could not find anywhere else that met their needs

In all cases - it should be exceptional not the norm - and you certainly could not advertise that able to take on siblings when only have one place

Hope I have explained that ok - if not ask again

Penny

I would say NO because this is new business - but we all seem to be interpreting things differently!

I see it the same as you!!! If you had a mindee who's parents then had twins and you only had 1 space available that would be ok! But to take on 2 new children (who themselves are siblings, but NOT siblings of a child already in your care) then this wouldn't be allowed!! :rolleyes:

Thanks for the letter/form Penny, really helpful :thumbsup:

Penny1959
05-08-2012, 01:02 PM
[QUOTE=Penny1959;1138558]

So where does it say that you could take on siblings as new business if you only have one place? - I am not being picky I just want to understand it

Hi Christine

I know you are not being nit picking - and like the rest of us you are trying to get your head round it all

In this instance we are all taking a different understanding - and as I have repeatedly said it is just my understanding
So again I think it will be as now (but remember this is just my personal understanding)

So from my previous post -

The answer is yes to siblings - provided there is a very good reason why using you - such as no one else offers the times that parent needs, or maybe you speak their language, or provide transport to from home etc.- in other words they could not find anywhere else that met their needs


In all cases - it should be exceptional not the norm - and you certainly could not advertise that able to take on siblings when only have one place

You are right it does not specifically say so anywhere - but EYFS gives us the flexibility to meet parents needs - and I am applying my personal take on this - if no one else can meet the parents requirements then I believe you could take siblings on (providing meeting all other requirements of EYFS 12)

In my opinion - and it is only my opinion - I think it is more honest and more professional to make the decision to take on both children from day one - rather than to say to the parent - well I will take on one of the children now - and maybe your friend / relative / other childminder can have the second one - and it does not work out - I will then apply an exception to take on second one (which as you point out is mentioned in the guidance document)

And I am sure a few people already do that now and have for years - start one child - then apply for a variation to take the second child.

As I say only my opinion - and I shall be applying this type of exception - if it ever happens

Why put a child through separation from a sibling ? Why create extra stress and hassle for the parent?

Why not just try to help the parent find alternative childcare for both children - and if you can't to do a full assessment of all children's needs and all requirements of EYFS 12 - and if confident can meet these apply a variation to take second child from day one.

I would say that was in the children's best interests.

BUT please do take on board this is my understanding - my reasoning - and not yours - if your understanding is different to mine - you must go with your understanding and your decision.

Penny :)

Penny1959
05-08-2012, 01:07 PM
bumpety bump :o

Opps sorry - forgot

It is in word but a newer version - I post again in an older format - let me know if still can't read it

Penny :)

Penny1959
05-08-2012, 01:11 PM
My documents in an older version of word

Penny :)

loocyloo
05-08-2012, 03:18 PM
thank you penny. :clapping:

very helpful. i had written a similar letter, but your letter makes sense :D

xxx

Bluebell
05-08-2012, 03:54 PM
Sorry!! didn't mean to cause confusion and its probably me that's nit-picking because I was picking up on something Penny had written earlier in the thread and wanted to clarify my understanding of it.

I do not require any 'exceptions' at this present time but I am sure it won't be long - I've been minding full time for less than a year and have had 3 variations already!

I want to make sure I completely understand the guidelines because it does seem it is open to interpretation.
But as Penny says although we can ask advice and opinions the only person who is now responsible is us and the main rule is ensuring the children's safety and wellbeing.

As Penny has lots of experience her capabilities (and therefore interpretation of the rules and what is manageable) will be different from mine - and she has prescedence from variations granted to her that she can base decisions on.

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply to my ongoing queries I'm probably fretting more than I need to!!

Penny1959
05-08-2012, 07:16 PM
As we have several differing views on taking on siblings when only have one space - and I would hate anyone to make a decision based on my personal view (if that view is not correct)

I have emailed my contact at Ofsted for clarification - I have had an automatic reply to say the person is on annual leave - so will be a couple of weeks at least before I would except a response. Once I do get a response I will post it so we will all know one way or another - and if I am wrong in my understanding I will apologise - and if my understanding is correct then at least you can be reassured that Ofsted agree with me.

I have copied Sarah into my email so that she will hopefully see the response.


Penny :)

KarenM
06-08-2012, 07:58 AM
Can I also ask about using assistants. I have two assistants so am covered at all times during the working day, and had an increase in numbers to 4 under 5 when working with either of them. Can I now increase my numbers without having to apply for a variation one I've measured space, ra etc and spoken to parents? I have one child whose parent keeps asking when I'm going to expand so her son can come more hours.

Penny1959
06-08-2012, 07:10 PM
Can I also ask about using assistants. I have two assistants so am covered at all times during the working day, and had an increase in numbers to 4 under 5 when working with either of them. Can I now increase my numbers without having to apply for a variation one I've measured space, ra etc and spoken to parents? I have one child whose parent keeps asking when I'm going to expand so her son can come more hours.

In theory - yes

However you will need to ensure that meeting all the requirements of EYFS - and any local planning rules

Assistants are cover by 3.41 and there is guidance about assistants in the ofsted document


Penny :)

dusky777
20-09-2012, 09:36 AM
Thanks you Penny

Tatjana
20-09-2012, 02:16 PM
Excellent letters, thank you very much!!

brillminder
13-10-2012, 02:39 PM
many thanks for sharing do you have a variation policy at all you would share as I guess thats needed also :) :clapping: