5 under 5

[julie w]

I have been reading and re-reading the new guidelines for variations come 1st September. They state that a childminder may be allowed to care for 5 under 5. I have been asked to have a child for an extra day a week come sept (I already mind 4 under 5) and just wanted to clarify if this is acceptable to ofsted as long as we do the usual ie risk assess for extra child and show how we can manage.

[rickysmiths]

It is clear in the revised Eyfs that you may only take on an extra child if they are the baby sibling of a current child and at the moment this is the only case we may vary our own numbers for.

We understand that we may also vary for continuity of care of the children already in out care so if a parent wants to change hours or days.

However it is clear that the rules that apply now apply from Sept. That is no variation for NEW business.

[julie w]

Thankyou. I have read it over and over but sometimes its seems to read differently iyswim . Its always good to hear it from someone else.ps it is a child I already mind and parents just want an extra day.

[sarah707]

I have been reading and re-reading the new guidelines for variations come 1st September. They state that a childminder may be allowed to care for 5 under 5. I have been asked to have a child for an extra day a week come sept (I already mind 4 under 5) and just wanted to clarify if this is acceptable to ofsted as long as we do the usual ie risk assess for extra child and show how we can manage.

My understanding of the requirements, after having lots of conversations with Ofsted on the subject, is that variations should only be self authorised in exceptional circumstances.

The normal ratio is 3 under 5 of course... you are asking about 5 under 5 which (from my understanding) would mean you self authorising 2 variations - the first to allow 4 under 5 and then a second variation to allow 5 under 5.

I think it is the 2nd variation that might cause you problems justifying it as an 'exceptional circumstance' - however that is between you and your paperwork at the end of the day.

Hth :D

[Mouse]

My understanding of the requirements, after having lots of conversations with Ofsted on the subject, is that variations should only be self authorised in exceptional circumstances.

The normal ratio is 3 under 5 of course... you are asking about 5 under 5 which (from my understanding) would mean you self authorising 2 variations - the first to allow 4 under 5 and then a second variation to allow 5 under 5.

I think it is the 2nd variation that might cause you problems justifying it as an 'exceptional circumstance' - however that is between you and your paperwork at the end of the day.

Hth :D

But what constitutes "exceptional circumstances"?

If you can self certify the first varaition for continuity of care, why would the second one be any different? The reasons would still be the same. The risk assessment process would still be the same.

If the first variation could be classed as an exceptional circumstance as parents need an extra day, surely the 2nd one would also be an exceptional circumstance if it was for the same reason?

It's all just so unclear :rolleyes:

I've been asked to change the days of 2 of my children, meaning I'd have 5 for one morning a week. I'm stalling at the moment & haven't given parents an answer. I'm hoping some clarification, when it comes, might make things more clear.

[julie w]

It seems to mean different things each time i read it. I already have a variation for 4 in place which will be on going. I will call them, but there again it usually depends who you speak to as to what you can do. I called last week to ask about having an extra child for a morning settling in. They said along the lines of, well its all changing in sept so may as well do what i like (not those actual words but along the lines of). I will write to them and ask for a written reply. I will let you all know the response.xx

[sarah707]

It seems to mean different things each time i read it. I already have a variation for 4 in place which will be on going. x

No, it won't say that on your new certificate.

All new certificates (which are being sent out from Sept over a few months from what I can gather) will say the same (unless you are restricted by size of house etc).

They will all say 6 under 8 / 3 be under 5 (of whom 1 can be under 1).

It will be up to the individual childminder to then authorise self variations for any scenario which varies from the certificate.

Hth :D

[sonia ann]

No, it won't say that on your new certificate.

All new certificates (which are being sent out from Sept over a few months from what I can gather) will say the same (unless you are restricted by size of house etc).

They will all say 5 under 8 / 3 be under 5 (of whom 1 can be under 1).

It will be up to the individual childminder to then authorise self variations for any scenario which varies from the certificate.

Hth :D

you do mean 6 under 8 don't you Sarah :)

[sarah707]

you do mean 6 under 8 don't you Sarah :)

It's been a trying day... sorry! :o I will change it so it doesn't confuse anyone :D

[lma]

So reading this would my situation be ok as Im confused?

I currently have a variation for 4 under 5's however the twin of one of my current mindees is currently being cared for by grandparents as he was very ill from birth and mum wanted him to have more one to one care but didnt want his twin brother to be held back hense why she sent him to me.

From talking to her she has asked me to have twin too from Oct/Nov as grandparent going into hospital and she feels he misses out on all the extras that his twin gets to do with me.

I was going to go to job centre to advertise for an assistant to help me with me being over numbers but if we can grant extra variations to ourselves to have 5 under 5's then i would just do this to help save myself all the extra paperwork and the fact that i would only need an assistant until the following september when 2 of my mindees go to full time school.

Any help would be appreciated.

x

[Chatterbox Childcare]

I would be asking myself could I managed 5 under 5? personally I don't like more than 4 but it is down to you.

My understanding from Sept that if you can cope with the 5 under 5 and in this instance it is an existing child then you could take 5

[lma]

i cope fine with 4 and 2 of them are great walkers and 1 is almost ready to walk. he walks well and i have a buggy board for when he gets tired so im not worried about me coping in any way. we dont go far and if needed i have my mum not too far to help if we went out for the day. but if we're allowed to do it then i would save myself a trip to job centre and the whole rigmarole of interviewing and paperwork.

[Penny1959]

Those of us who already have a variation for 4 under 5's at the moment - may continue to care for those children.

If one of the parents already using our service require extra days or to change days - we may do this provided we

Risk assess
Have enough / right equipment
Know we can cope
Have informed all the parent using our service.

Under NO circumstances must we give ourselves a 'variation' for new business
Under No circumstances must we exceed 6 under 8's

We must be able to prove (if asked) how we risk assessed and what we based our decision on.

Personally I think that it is very confusing and open to people 'bending' the rules.

I will be having 5 under 5 two days a week and 4 under 5's on the other three days from September - all the children have been in my care for well over a year, I know them well and they all have excellent routines and relationships with each other and with me.

But even so - I know it will be hard work and would not want to to have 5 under 5 all the time.

Penny :)

[lma]

thanks penny youve really helped he out. :)

[PixiePetal]

Those of us who already have a variation for 4 under 5's at the moment - may continue to care for those children.

If one of the parents already using our service require extra days or to change days - we may do this provided we

Risk assess
Have enough / right equipment
Know we can cope
Have informed all the parent using our service.

Under NO circumstances must we give ourselves a 'variation' for new business
Under No circumstances must we exceed 6 under 8's

We must be able to prove (if asked) how we risk assessed and what we based our decision on.

Personally I think that it is very confusing and open to people 'bending' the rules.

I will be having 5 under 5 two days a week and 4 under 5's on the other three days from September - all the children have been in my care for well over a year, I know them well and they all have excellent routines and relationships with each other and with me.

But even so - I know it will be hard work and would not want to to have 5 under 5 all the time.

Penny :)

so I am right in thinking then that IF I take on the 3 and 1 yr old siblings now, (if they want me!) for Mon and Tues and they need an extra day after Sept I could do it as they will already be in my care. I have another set of 3 and 1 yr old siblings on the other 2 days I work? taking it to 4 under 5's on 2 days - only in theory for now (2x 3yrs and 2x 1yr)

If it is ok with parents and I RA and have equipment needed of course. I have no older ones, these would be all.

[jumping j]

Those of us who already have a variation for 4 under 5's at the moment - may continue to care for those children.

If one of the parents already using our service require extra days or to change days - we may do this provided we

Risk assess
Have enough / right equipment
Know we can cope
Have informed all the parent using our service.

Under NO circumstances must we give ourselves a 'variation' for new business
Under No circumstances must we exceed 6 under 8's

We must be able to prove (if asked) how we risk assessed and what we based our decision on.

Personally I think that it is very confusing and open to people 'bending' the rules.

I will be having 5 under 5 two days a week and 4 under 5's on the other three days from September - all the children have been in my care for well over a year, I know them well and they all have excellent routines and relationships with each other and with me.

But even so - I know it will be hard work and would not want to to have 5 under 5 all the time.

Penny :)

Thanks Penny, this has cleared something up for me, I have lo's wanting extra days in September and was thinking I'd need an assistant - it means I'd have 5 under 5 2 days a week - which would mean trying to get planning permission (which I'm struggling to get my head round)

[Penny1959]

so I am right in thinking then that IF I take on the 3 and 1 yr old siblings now, (if they want me!) for Mon and Tues and they need an extra day after Sept I could do it as they will already be in my care. I have another set of 3 and 1 yr old siblings on the other 2 days I work? taking it to 4 under 5's on 2 days - only in theory for now (2x 3yrs and 2x 1yr)

If it is ok with parents and I RA and have equipment needed of course. I have no older ones, these would be all.

In theory yes - but until the children are with you - you will not be able to assess if you could cope, if the children are all going to get on with each other or know what the needs of the children joining you will be - or even the needs of the children currently in your care will be in a few months.


Not suggesting that this is the case for you Pixiepetal - but I worry that some childminders will take on new children to fit spaces they have - then tell the parent that they can have extra days ( the ones the parents wanted in the first place but did not have spaces for) after a few months or even weeks

Penny :)