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mushpea
04-07-2012, 07:27 PM
I'm at a revised ETFs training an they have just said you can't decide yourself if you can have 4 under5s even if you risk asses it an even if its sibblings or continuity of care yet Sarah , as I understood it you suggested we can judge for ourselves if we can have r an not have to apply to ofsted so now I'm confused

sarah707
04-07-2012, 07:47 PM
Some local authorities are making up their own rules - like Cheshire East say we have to get their permission first.

My document is the latest Ofsted guidance.

xx

wendywu
04-07-2012, 07:52 PM
Surrey say its up to us to decide. I still don't understand how a LA can put their own spin on this.

So you take on 4 despite your LA saying you can't. Then what ! It's no good anyone complaining to Ofsted because as far as they are concerned it's ok with them . So what would happen in this case :panic:

onceinabluemoon
04-07-2012, 08:15 PM
I went to eyfs training on Monday and they told me we had to tell ofsted we were having another child and show how we have risk assessed it and can manage etc and they can say no we can't have that child. Nothing has really changed except we do all the work now. My trainers also told me the certificates will read 6 under 8 with no other limitations on them... (Ofsted themselves told me days before it would say the same as it does now except there would be no '2 under one year' on it!). I am more confused now than before i went!

I honestly do not see how eyfs 2012 is less work for pre-school age children's carers, from what I have seen we still have to do everything we have been doing but now have to sort out variations and 2 year checks as well...

blue bear
04-07-2012, 08:16 PM
That's crazy the lea are there to support us not tell us what we can and cannot do, there advice is just that not law.

Talki g to a d/o the other day, they will be monitoring the variation/risk assessment is not abused but are not expecting us to ask permission. From what she was saying monitoring is now their domain and I suppose some authorities are interpreting that how they wish.

From what I e read it was always the intention to send us certificates with no conditions on unless we are restricted due to house size. It will be up to us to apply the revised eyfs numbers as per the guidance.

mushpea
04-07-2012, 08:49 PM
I showed them your document sarah and a few of the posts regarding this and they said that ofsted have not yet issued this and basicly they laughed at the idea that we dont have to apply to ofsted,, great , I tell them what you have written and they laugh at me, I wasnt impressed.
as far as they are concerned ofsted say we still have to apply to them in september and we cant just agree ourselves wether we take on extra children even if it is continuity of care.
what concerns me now is that people will take your word that we dont have to apply then iligaly have more children than they should.
I have to say Sarah that I respect you a lot and aprceitate that you can be very knowladgable and that you keep yourself very up todate , I love your docments you write and really appriciate the time you put in on this forum and the advice you give me so please dont get me wrong but I do think that facts need to be got straight and people need to understand that this might not actutaly happen,, because I belive that you are so up on these matters I had pretyped a letter to parents , not given it to them but typed it in preparation for september explaing these changes and how it would benifit them should they need extra hours, I just hope that I am the only one to have done so and that people havent been telling parents that from september they will be able to have their children extra days if needed. let me state that I havent told parents or given them the letter but have typed it ready whilst I had spare time to do so.
my la is essex and they know nothing of this change.

loocyloo
04-07-2012, 08:59 PM
north yorkshire are aware of the change and say it will be up to individual childminders, the norm will be 3 under 5 and we can grant ourselves variation for siblings ... they are checking for continuity of care. north yorks LA will NOT be asking/granting permission. they will be supporting childminders just as they do now!

Bridey
04-07-2012, 09:00 PM
Just come back from New EYFS training and this is what Hampshire said ...

(and believe me, I made sure I wrote this down!)

Emergency variations can be granted by Ofsted over the phone for one day only - to be used should a parent turn up on your doorstep with the child without prior warning.

Other variations require 14 days notice to Ofsted.

No variation required for going over numbers with continuity of care eg four siblings :laughing:

Ofsted are still waiting confirmation from DofE on all this as they are not happy that the no variation scenario is open to abuse!

mushpea
04-07-2012, 09:02 PM
so will it be ofsted or a loca authoruitys that grant variations from september then?

Bridey
04-07-2012, 09:04 PM
Who knows! :rolleyes:

sarah707
04-07-2012, 09:09 PM
I showed them your document sarah and a few of the posts regarding this and they said that ofsted have not yet issued this and basicly they laughed at the idea that we dont have to apply to ofsted,, great , I tell them what you have written and they laugh at me, I wasnt impressed.
as far as they are concerned ofsted say we still have to apply to them in september and we cant just agree ourselves wether we take on extra children even if it is continuity of care.
what concerns me now is that people will take your word that we dont have to apply then iligaly have more children than they should.
I have to say Sarah that I respect you a lot and aprceitate that you can be very knowladgable and that you keep yourself very up todate , I love your docments you write and really appriciate the time you put in on this forum and the advice you give me so please dont get me wrong but I do think that facts need to be got straight and people need to understand that this might not actutaly happen,, because I belive that you are so up on these matters I had pretyped a letter to parents , not given it to them but typed it in preparation for september explaing these changes and how it would benifit them should they need extra hours, I just hope that I am the only one to have done so and that people havent been telling parents that from september they will be able to have their children extra days if needed. let me state that I havent told parents or given them the letter but have typed it ready whilst I had spare time to do so.
my la is essex and they know nothing of this change.


With the greatest respect to your LA... and you as you have clearly been upset by them tonight...

But do you really really think I would put something as important as the variations document on the forum or anywhere else without getting it checked by Ofsted first? :(

I am first and foremost totally professional in everything I do.

If I am not sure about any of my facts I go straight to the top and get my answers from Ofsted - not the phone line, the person making the decisions - and so does Penny.

My document was proof read (and changed in lots of places) by Ofsted and it was correct on the day it was written.

I am happy to share my information with your LA if they want further clarification.

loocyloo
04-07-2012, 09:09 PM
Just come back from New EYFS training and this is what Hampshire said ...

(and believe me, I made sure I wrote this down!)

Emergency variations can be granted by Ofsted over the phone for one day only - to be used should a parent turn up on your doorstep with the child without prior warning.

Other variations require 14 days notice to Ofsted.

No variation required for going over numbers with continuity of care eg four siblings :laughing:

Ofsted are still waiting confirmation from DofE on all this as they are not happy that the no variation scenario is open to abuse!

:panic: i thought i had it clear in my mind ... obviously not! ARGHHHH!

mushpea
04-07-2012, 09:18 PM
With the greatest respect to your LA... and you as you have clearly been upset by them tonight...

But do you really really think I would put something as important as the variations document on the forum or anywhere else without getting it checked by Ofsted first? :(

I am first and foremost totally professional in everything I do.

If I am not sure about any of my facts I go straight to the top and get my answers from Ofsted - not the phone line, the person making the decisions - and so does Penny.

My document was proof read (and changed in lots of places) by Ofsted and it was correct on the day it was written.

I am happy to share my information with your LA if they want further clarification.

applogies Sarah I didnt mean to offend you, I have the greatest respect for the time and work you put in and the advice you give is excellant and many a time you have helped answer questions for me ,
as for tonight I came away totaly upset and stressed over the whole affair one hand I have somone whom I respect telling me that they have spoken to ofsted who have told them we can judge variations for ourselves and on the other hand I have essex la telling me its all a load of tosh and saying to ignore this advice and to always contact ofsted regarding variations.
Of course I dont think you would put this on here with out checking things out first but as you have put in the document there are areas that still need to be verified and I just worry that people will take it as gospel and not worry about informing ofsted in september of taking on a 4th child. but then I guess the onus is on them to check it out properly with who ever will give out variations .
I guess unitll its in black and white from ofsted the best thing to do is to apply to ofsted then if they come back and say I dont need to then great.
I must say that I was very shocked knowing that the information was on this forum and that you had contacte d ofsted with this that the people delivering our training tonight knew nothing of this. you would think they would check their facts too. really what we need is an ofsted inspector at these meetings so we can ask them questions.
there were other things that came up tonight like not highligting the development matters yet how then can we prove to ofsted we know the child and that they have reached these milestones.
I wish they would just leave things as they are:rolleyes:

miffy
04-07-2012, 09:22 PM
I just wish Ofsted would hurry up and publish their own guidance - preferably before the 1st of September!

Miffy xx

lfishwick
05-07-2012, 05:33 AM
I was told on the phone by Ofsted just this week I need not apply to them for a variation from September.

I phoned to enquire about my twins changing their days and asking could I have 4 little ones alone on these days... Her words were she saw no problem but as it wouldn't impact until September- to leave it as I can make my own decision and risk assess it then as Ofsted are not doing variations and it is up to me to assess and be able to explain why I felt my decision was safe and in the best interest of the children - should I get asked and nothing was to be sent to them just kept on file in 'any chosen format'.

So Ofsted clearly Ofsted are stating this as a 'done deal'

sue m
05-07-2012, 05:53 AM
I rang Ofsted the other day to ask if I can have 4 under 5 years old and the woman kept referring to the EYFS as EYSF and said it was up to me, I know how many I can manage.

mama2three
05-07-2012, 05:54 AM
What is most worrying here is that , unlike sarah , LAs seem to be struggling to get a grip on this. A number of us have spoken directly to Ofsted and they repeat what sarah has told us , - various ' trainers' have read the document and are interpreting it without neccesarily checking the facts. Wasnt one member told the other night that as a childminder she didnt need to do the EYFS paperwork?
This is getting beyond a joke - like Miffy i wish Ofsted would get on and publish so that we have something 'concrete' to refer our LAs back to.

As for the part about not highlighting / ticking the development matters - it hasnt really changed , the observations , next steps and summaries show we know the child and ticklists have been out of favour for some time.

blue bear
05-07-2012, 06:42 AM
At my briefing they had clearly only had a quick read and told us at it stands we have to give notice to any children we have a variation on come September "unless ofsted issue further guidelines between now and then" (she is a d/o)

Load of rubbish, I told her I had contacted dfe and had a response that indicated all would be sorted end of July and people were not to panic, I sign posted the minders at the meeting to this forum and basically ended up answering every ones questions.

Speaking to another d/o this week her understanding was completely inline with what Sarah has written.

Bridey
05-07-2012, 06:55 AM
We were told that the official word was that current variations "MAY' still apply in September, or they "MAY" not! :rolleyes:

We did have a good trainer who admitted she was wading around as lost as we were over all this and there was not much she could confirm until the official guidelines come out. She said that all the rules have been set by DofE and Ofsted don't write them, they just govern them and there are bits that they are still clarifying themselves.

She also told us that once the official guidelines are published, she is sure amendments will follow given time!

The Juggler
05-07-2012, 07:12 AM
applogies Sarah I didnt mean to offend you, I have the greatest respect for the time and work you put in and the advice you give is excellant and many a time you have helped answer questions for me ,
as for tonight I came away totaly upset and stressed over the whole affair one hand I have somone whom I respect telling me that they have spoken to ofsted who have told them we can judge variations for ourselves and on the other hand I have essex la telling me its all a load of tosh and saying to ignore this advice and to always contact ofsted regarding variations.
Of course I dont think you would put this on here with out checking things out first but as you have put in the document there are areas that still need to be verified and I just worry that people will take it as gospel and not worry about informing ofsted in september of taking on a 4th child. but then I guess the onus is on them to check it out properly with who ever will give out variations .
I guess unitll its in black and white from ofsted the best thing to do is to apply to ofsted then if they come back and say I dont need to then great.
I must say that I was very shocked knowing that the information was on this forum and that you had contacte d ofsted with this that the people delivering our training tonight knew nothing of this. you would think they would check their facts too. really what we need is an ofsted inspector at these meetings so we can ask them questions.
there were other things that came up tonight like not highligting the development matters yet how then can we prove to ofsted we know the child and that they have reached these milestones.
I wish they would just leave things as they are:rolleyes:

mushpea I am not surprised at this at all. I find from keeping in touch with whats going on via this forum and just generally through other sites and reading that I often know more about what's going on than ANYONE in our LA does (those in an advisory role I mean). Apart from that all those people are now gone and the people that have taken on their roles haven't a scooby about what is going on :panic:

I think your LA need to get their act into gear. I would challenge them and say this is how it is now and WHY don't they know. I'm delivering a workshop on the revised EYFS to the childminders who attend our children's centre in 2 weeks plus outhers from the locality and I will be using the new EYFS document plus the additional guidance that Sarah has produced from her conversations with ofsted (thank you Sarah :thumbsup:) to explain how variations will work from September.

THe only person in our LA who was any good with keeping up to date with things like this has now left :panic: so as a support Minder and a member of the cc advisory board I don't see who else will keep minders up to date at teh moment. :(

mushpea
05-07-2012, 07:58 AM
i have emailed the lady who did the course last night and just pm'd sarah with her email address, I copied the link to this post thread for her to read and have asked her to help clarify matters in this ,
hopefully she will read this thread and realise that actutaly this is somting that could come in to force september and that we need to have clear guidelines on how do deal with it.

sarah707
05-07-2012, 08:11 AM
Mushpea has kindly shared the email address of the person who delivered the training last night with me.

I am hopeful that she will contact me when she receives my email so I can give her further details and assure her of the validity of my information.

I feel so sad for Mushpea being made to feel bad last night. Nobody deserves that kind of treatment :( especially when the validity of the information she was showing can be proven without any question to be correct on the day it was written.

I have sent her this message -

Hi, my name is Sarah Neville. I am an outstanding registered childminder (2007 and 2011) and early years writer for publications such as Child Care Magazine. I also sell a range of well respected e-books for childminders and early years practitioners.

I understand you were delivering some training last night and a childminder showed you one of my documents detailing how variations will be organised from September 2012 under the revised EYFS. From what I can gather the validity of the information in my document was questioned and the childminder was left feeling confused about how to proceed.

I would like to assure you that my document has been fully proofread by Ofsted. I am not talking about asking the phone line some questions – it was proofed and corrected by an Ofsted employee who is directly responsible for delivering information about the revised EYFS. I understand my contact’s remit includes contributing to the document Ofsted will eventually produce to clarify requirements for granting variations from September for childminders.

I would like to assure you that I have never released any document which gives information which will knowingly deliver the wrong details... and where I interpret information I make it very clear that it is my take on what has been written. The details in the document shown to you last night were correct on the day they were written.

If you have any questions or would like more information from me, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Best regards,

Sarah

mushpea
05-07-2012, 02:36 PM
thanks Sarah it will be interesting to read her reply ,
I must admit though that I read the EYFS today after talking to ofsted and Im still confused as in the eyfs it dosent actutaly say we no longer have to contact ofsted regarding variations and it only says about baby siblings and our own children not about continuity of care or older siblings yet when I rang ofsted she was certain that as long as we can prove we can meet each individual childs needs then we can have 4 under 5's, I did ask when they would be publishing this but she said it is already with in the Eyfs yet I cant find where it says about having a child an extra day for continuity of care or for siblings.


arrrgggghhhhh,, I was certian what I was doing up untill last night

MAWI
05-07-2012, 02:46 PM
I went to a briefing last night and was told that we no longer contact OFSTED. We have to contact the LA early years team!!!

Bridey
05-07-2012, 03:19 PM
I was told we contact Ofsted and ask for the Regulating Officer! :laughing:

wendywu
05-07-2012, 04:25 PM
I was told at training that we decide ourselves.

Anyone been told to contact Mystic Meg, the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny or Old Father Time yet. It is getting beyond a joke :panic:

sarak31
05-07-2012, 06:46 PM
My understanding was the rules haven't changed - our ratios remain the same, 6 children, with 3 of those under 5 and one of those 3 under 1.

Ofsted sometimes grant variations for the following scenarios-
- if a child has started full time school and is not yet 5 we may consider him / her over 5 for the purposes of ratios (the rising 5s rule)
- when a existing child has a sibling and we want to care for them
- when the childminder has another child
These are usually granted providing the childminder has an inspection grade of good or above and provided it doesn't put them over their maximum of 6 children.

I understood the changes in september to basically mean that this all remained unchanged but we did not need to apply to ofsted for the variation, simply that we made the decision ourselves and did the appropriate risk assessments. We are not able, as is usually the case now, to take on a brand new child if that puts us over our ratios.

Our certificates will come through with just the total number of children on, ie able to care for 6 children under 8 including your own, to enable us to make our own decisions around ratios where we already have a relationship with the children without ofsted having to issue a new certificate each time.

I hope I have got this all right, I'd be very grateful if someone corrects me if not so I don't go off and do the wrong thing in sept!

Like others above, my local authority knew nothing of this at the training (I did as I had read the new framework which made me wonder if they had before giving the training!) and I ended up having to tell everyone! so fingers crossed I got it right or all of us around here will be getting in trouble over ratios!

Bridey
05-07-2012, 06:51 PM
My understanding was the rules haven't changed - our ratios remain the same, 6 children, with 3 of those under 5 and one of those 3 under 1.

Ofsted sometimes grant variations for the following scenarios-
- if a child has started full time school and is not yet 5 we may consider him / her over 5 for the purposes of ratios (the rising 5s rule)
- when a existing child has a sibling and we want to care for them
- when the childminder has another child
These are usually granted providing the childminder has an inspection grade of good or above and provided it doesn't put them over their maximum of 6 children.

I understood the changes in september to basically mean that this all remained unchanged but we did not need to apply to ofsted for the variation, simply that we made the decision ourselves and did the appropriate risk assessments. We are not able, as is usually the case now, to take on a brand new child if that puts us over our ratios.

Our certificates will come through with just the total number of children on, ie able to care for 6 children under 8 including your own, to enable us to make our own decisions around ratios where we already have a relationship with the children without ofsted having to issue a new certificate each time.

I hope I have got this all right, I'd be very grateful if someone corrects me if not so I don't go off and do the wrong thing in sept!

Like others above, my local authority knew nothing of this at the training (I did as I had read the new framework which made me wonder if they had before giving the training!) and I ended up having to tell everyone! so fingers crossed I got it right or all of us around here will be getting in trouble over ratios!

This is what we were told last night. Any other sort of situation ... ie an emergency one if there is parent on your doorstep or if you want to have an extra child for a period of time, say if a parent wants you to do extra hours one week then you need to ring Ofsted still for a variation.

Pipsqueak
05-07-2012, 06:55 PM
I vote Sarah - EVERY time:D


and my local LA use and recommend Sarah's e-books and info docs...:clapping:

(oh and they still ask me if you have reconsidered delivering some training...)

sarah707
05-07-2012, 08:46 PM
This is what we were told last night. Any other sort of situation ... ie an emergency one if there is parent on your doorstep or if you want to have an extra child for a period of time, say if a parent wants you to do extra hours one week then you need to ring Ofsted still for a variation.

Ofsted will not want to hear from childminders about variations from September!

If you ring them they will refer you to the EYFS and tell you to follow the rules set out in that.

There wlil also be a further guidance document to help you decide whether you can allow the variation or not.

I hope this clarifies :D

hectors house
06-07-2012, 07:25 AM
Makes me so cross that the county childcare advisers interpret the info given from Ofsted (sometimes wrongly), we are then given incorrect info at training info and marked down on our Ofsted inspections because of it.

I am going with Sarah's interpretation makes perfect sense.

Bridey
06-07-2012, 07:35 AM
Makes me so cross that the county childcare advisers interpret the info given from Ofsted (sometimes wrongly), we are then given incorrect info at training info and marked down on our Ofsted inspections because of it.


You know what, I sat there at the training session listening to the confusion around me and decided its all a bit like religion... different religious books interpreted in different ways by different groups, each thinking they are right and nobody actually knowing what the people who wrote them actually intended to get across!

wendywu
06-07-2012, 07:36 AM
well I know that Sarah is so tuned up with current legislation that I will go with what she says every time.:thumbsup:

At least Surrey seem to be on the right track this time :)

mushpea
06-07-2012, 07:37 AM
I have read the bit in the eyfs regarding this and it dosent say we can decide for ourselves yet when I rang them yesterday she said yes we can decide for ourselves and it says this in the eyfs but I cant find the bit where it says this,, it dosent say ofsted are no longer doing variations and that we can just decide ourselves,
to be honest I dont think it is very clear at all and fell we need further clarifacation from ofsted. I emailed them yesterday to ask them the question so that I will have it in writing , wether they will comit to this will be interesting.

sarah707
06-07-2012, 07:48 AM
I have read the bit in the eyfs regarding this and it dosent say we can decide for ourselves yet when I rang them yesterday she said yes we can decide for ourselves and it says this in the eyfs but I cant find the bit where it says this,, it dosent say ofsted are no longer doing variations and that we can just decide ourselves,
to be honest I dont think it is very clear at all and fell we need further clarifacation from ofsted. I emailed them yesterday to ask them the question so that I will have it in writing , wether they will comit to this will be interesting.

It's about what it doesn't say rather than what it does say...

Requirement 3.40 - If a childminder can demonstrate to parents and/or carers and inspectors, that the individual needs of all the children are being met, then exceptions to the usual ratios can be made when childminders are caring for sibling babies, or when caring for their own baby.

It does not say 'when providers have completed a variation request form, sent it to Ofsted, waited 4 weeks for them to make a decision and then lost the contract because it's taken too long ... then exceptions to the usual ratios can be made'.

It talks about demonstrating that you have thought things through properly to parents and inspectors - inspectors who might come out to investigate a complaint about over-minding or inspectors who might challenge the childminder to prove why they have changed ratios during an inspection.

It's a very fine line but it is there :D

mushpea
06-07-2012, 07:56 AM
I understand what you are saying Sarah but as a freind pointed out yesterday it also dosent say that we dont need to contact ofsted for variations anymore when we have always had too,, it also says for sibling babies not for older siblings or for continuity of care for children already with us yet again ofsted said yesterday that we can decide ourselves for continuity of care and older sibblings,, its like the eyfs says one thing and ofsted say another and thats what I am finding worrying and confusing,, what worries me most that I will demonsrate that I can look after 4 under 5s then when ofsted find out or inspect they will say that I shouldnt have done that.
Im not questioning what you have written sarah, what I am questioning is the clarity of it all within the eyfs and the fact that the eyfs says one thing and ofsted are saying another

sarah707
06-07-2012, 08:30 AM
what I am questioning is the clarity of it all within the eyfs and the fact that the eyfs says one thing and ofsted are saying another

You are absolutely right to question the clarity - that is exactly why I asked Ofsted to proof my document!

I knew that if I wrote something myself, however well intentioned, I might get it wrong...

You should see the red lines through what I originally wrote if you have any doubt about whether it's been proofed by someone with a lot more knowledge than me! :o :laughing:

Penny1959
06-07-2012, 10:07 AM
Sorry - I have not been on the forum for a couple of days - especially as this post was directed at me and Sarah

As you all know Sarah and I do not always agree on everything BUT when it comes to giving guidence on EYFS STATUTORY REQUIREMENTS we both check our facts very carefully.

We have both contacted senior ofsted person - to be blunt one person down from head of Ofsted Early Years - and I am sure that that person would not put anything in writing if it was not one hundred percent right (after all the person could be quoted by Sarah and I and lose her job)

I have already posted the contents of the email sent to me which very clearly says that - variations already granted continue, that WE DONT apply for variations and so on but insted of re posting the email I had - I am posting an article from Nursery World - who are also careful to check their facts - from the issue 25th June and it just happens to be the same person giving this statement who has provided information to Sarah and I

Ofsted would no longer impose conditions of registration such as numbers of children or for overnight care as these were all covered by the EYFS and providers would be referred back to that. 'The EYFS makes these things clear – it does not mean providers may simply decide to increase their numbers.'

So we must comply with EYFS and not ask Ofsted for variations - I am very clear about what is allowed - so is Sarah - but for those who are not sure the guidence will be out soon.

I will also happily talk to any LA that doubts my information, Sarah's information and Nursery World's.

And if needed I will personally write to the person at Ofsted to name these LA's as I know Ofsted will not be pleased.

Penny:)

mushpea
06-07-2012, 01:42 PM
hello Penny,, applologies but I cant seem to find your post with this email on,please could you forward me a copy of the email so that I can both forward it on to my LA and also so that I can show my childminder friends as they dont belive that we can just decide ourselves even though they know I have rang ofsted regarding this,,, I did email ofsted yesterday asking if they could put it in writing for me but they still have not replied as yet and I would like to be able to show my minding friends when we meet at the childrens center Wednesday that I have proof from ofsted regarding this matter.
thanks
donnaschildminding@live.co.uk

Bridey
06-07-2012, 02:35 PM
I have one question about a situation that does confuse me ...

What would you do in an emergency situation where you have to say yes or no to desperate parent? The child is not a sibling, its the child of a friend, this is a life or death emergency, you don't know when they would be able to collect, you have no risk assessment in place and no opportunity to contact the other parents first so you can't comply with the EYFS. Would you say "no" or would you ring Ofsted?

Edit: to help would take me over my 3 younger children but still within the 6 maximum allowed. There is nothing mentioned about emergency situations in the EYFS.

sarah707
06-07-2012, 07:28 PM
I have one question about a situation that does confuse me ...

What would you do in an emergency situation where you have to say yes or no to desperate parent? The child is not a sibling, its the child of a friend, this is a life or death emergency, you don't know when they would be able to collect, you have no risk assessment in place and no opportunity to contact the other parents first so you can't comply with the EYFS. Would you say "no" or would you ring Ofsted?

Edit: to help would take me over my 3 younger children but still within the 6 maximum allowed. There is nothing mentioned about emergency situations in the EYFS.

The rules, as far as I have been informed, are going to state that a risk assessment must be in place and discussions with parents must have happened to ensure they are happy with the changes before a variation is granted.

So without those the answer is no the variation would not be ok to go ahead. Ofsted do not want to be involved in any decisions about variations from Sept 1st - they will refer us to the requirements.

Hth :D

Penny1959
06-07-2012, 09:18 PM
My understanding is the same as Sarah's - the example given is not continuity of care - it is in effect 'new business' even if only for a few hours.

Other parents would not be aware of the situaion nor would you know the child and its needs - such a situation could completely change routines and smooth running of the setting.

I also agree with Sarah that Ofsted will not want to know andwould just refer you back to EYFS.

So the answer would have to be No.

Penny :)

Edit - just a thought and I don't know the answer because not asked the question of Ofsted. Sarah have you asked this question?

What if a colleague for whom you are emerency back up needs urgent cover - for example has had to take a child to hospital and has asked you to step in with other 2 under fives - just until parents arrive to collect / or able to return. Assume that parents been informed of potential of this happening and risk assessment done (as in general terms about having children in such situations)

Can we do it?

This did happen to me once - and I had to take children - but at the time just rang Ofsted to tell them what had happened and what actions I was taking to arrange for parents to collect childtren and therefore return to ratio's as soon as possible. They gave emergency permission over phone.

Zoomie
06-07-2012, 10:55 PM
This did happen to me once - and I had to take children - but at the time just rang Ofsted to tell them what had happened and what actions I was taking to arrange for parents to collect childtren and therefore return to ratio's as soon as possible. They gave emergency permission over phone.

So, would we phone Ofsted in this situation ? (Post September)

sarah707
07-07-2012, 07:43 AM
Edit - just a thought and I don't know the answer because not asked the question of Ofsted. Sarah have you asked this question?

What if a colleague for whom you are emerency back up needs urgent cover - for example has had to take a child to hospital and has asked you to step in with other 2 under fives - just until parents arrive to collect / or able to return. Assume that parents been informed of potential of this happening and risk assessment done (as in general terms about having children in such situations)

Can we do it?

There has always been a proviso for emergency cover which might take us over our numbers...

I am 99% certain the answer was that emergency cover can be provided for up to 2 hours even if it takes us over numbers to allow parents time to collect.

Ofsted and insurance must be informed asap.

Now who asked the question recently? Can anyone remember? :D

Mouse
07-07-2012, 08:01 AM
I have one question about a situation that does confuse me ...

What would you do in an emergency situation where you have to say yes or no to desperate parent? The child is not a sibling, its the child of a friend, this is a life or death emergency, you don't know when they would be able to collect, you have no risk assessment in place and no opportunity to contact the other parents first so you can't comply with the EYFS. Would you say "no" or would you ring Ofsted?

Edit: to help would take me over my 3 younger children but still within the 6 maximum allowed. There is nothing mentioned about emergency situations in the EYFS.

In that situation I would phone Ofsted for advice. The revised EYFS might well say that we don't contact them anymore for variations, but it doesn't mean we're not allowed to contact them at all! They have always been able to grant variations for emergencies, even when it isn't for continuity of care (ie. doesn't fit the current EYFS requirements). If, from Sept, they said it was up to you to decide if you should do it, I would if it really was a genuine emergency.
If I ended up in trouble because of it, what really is going to happen? A telling off from Ofsted, a slap on the wrist and told not to do it again? That's all that happens to cms now who are regularly over their numbers :rolleyes: As a one off emergency in a life or death situation for a friend, I would take the risk.

Penny1959
08-07-2012, 07:45 AM
There has always been a proviso for emergency cover which might take us over our numbers...

I am 99% certain the answer was that emergency cover can be provided for up to 2 hours even if it takes us over numbers to allow parents time to collect.

Ofsted and insurance must be informed asap.

Now who asked the question recently? Can anyone remember? :D

Sorry Sarah - did not make myself clear

Yes I agree with you - and understand the 'rule' now

But have you asked if the same 'rules' will apply after Sept 12?

I have not asked the direct question myself - and not like to advise unless checked facts.

Penny :)

sarah707
08-07-2012, 09:58 AM
Sorry Sarah - did not make myself clear

Yes I agree with you - and understand the 'rule' now

But have you asked if the same 'rules' will apply after Sept 12?

I have not asked the direct question myself - and not like to advise unless checked facts.

Penny :)

No Penny I have not asked about this scenario from September.

xx