Understanding Variations from Sept 2012 (By Sarah)

[Pauline]

Sarah has kindly written and shared a pdf document which explains how variations to your registration, such as a change in ratio of children, will work from September 2012 under the revised EYFS

It is now available in the free downloads:

http://childmindinghelp.co.uk/freeresources/Free%20downloads/variations2012.html

Thanks Sarah :thumbsup:

[QualityCare]

Thanks Sarah :thumbsup:

[AliceK]

Thank you Sarah.
I've just had a look at it, very helpful :thumbsup:

xxx

[sarah707]

It's really important that you ask if you still have questions after reading through the document.

Ofsted are writing their guidance soon and if we want things in writing so they are clear now is the time to shout!

They know about all the issues I have raised in the document as waiting for clarification such as assistants and how it is recorded that they have had sole care / been there on a certain day or at a certain time etc.

I am happy to approach them on behalf of anyone who doesn't feel they can talk to them directly :D

[TooEarlyForGin?]

They mention sibling babies, but what if you are caring for a child and the parent needs extra hours that then overlap? This has been a regular occurrence for me and usually comes under continuation of care which seems to be absent.

Also with regards to "sibling babies" what happens if you are caring for a baby and then an older child who is attending another setting, say a nursery - closes, or the parent has an issue with them and wishes to transfer their child to you?

I understand these aren't questions you can answer, but if you are sending anything off please add these comments, they are something I will be asking myself.

[sarah707]

They mention sibling babies, but what if you are caring for a child and the parent needs extra hours that then overlap? This has been a regular occurrence for me and usually comes under continuation of care which seems to be absent.

This is answered - if a parent needs extra hours you will need to write a risk assessment to make sure you can meet the child's needs, all the other children's needs etc while staying within your '6 children under the age of 8' ratio.

As long as you can show you are within ratios and all other parents are happy with the change (I suggest getting it in writing) then you can care for the child for the extra hours.

You would write a RA and get ok from parents each time it happened if it was ad-hoc but if it was regular you could state that in your RA.


Also with regards to "sibling babies" what happens if you are caring for a baby and then an older child who is attending another setting, say a nursery - closes, or the parent has an issue with them and wishes to transfer their child to you?

You would only be able to accommodate the child if you had space within your ratios of 6 under the age of 8 - as the rules stand at the moment.

there is no flexibility for going above 6 children if you work on your own.


What Ofsted are keen for us to take on board is that changes to ratios must be the exception not the norm.

Does that help? :D

[sandy64]

thanks sarah that helped a lot very interesting:)

[Stapleton83]

Sarah,

Many thanks for cutting through the forest of paper to give a concise and easily understandable precis of variations. Really helpful.

Sam x:clapping:

[shazza06]

?Hmmm! interesting reading and still slightly confusing ...I have just got permission through from Ofsted to take on my assistant and today sent off the variation for increase in numbers, So will I get my variation under old EYFS and will they agree to increase as on one day i will have 4 14 month olds plus a 2 1/2 yr old with my assistant plus my 5 yr old and my assistants 6 yr old before and after school but only after school for assistants child for about 1/2 hr... sounds confusing doesnt it!!! life wouldve been so much easier if i hadnt got to take on sibling plus a temp child has turned permanent !!! worried that variation may take longer as theres the eyfs change over for when i want the variation to take place ...ive asked them to process the matter as a case of urgency as assistant needs to give notice by end of june at her school where she works enabling her to work for me but i cant take her on until i know i have the permission from ofsted to increase no`s..complicated isnt it and it sure has given me sleepless nights but at least i have permission for the assistant in place but have only two weeks to go before assistant gives notice ..aagh,,what do you think will happen ?

[mushpea]

Gosh thats great thanks sarah.

ok so if I risk asses the extra child/children and its related to continuity of care then I dont need to contact or inform ofsted of having prehaps 4 under 5's?

and potential we could have 6 children under 5 as long as we dont exceed 6 children under 8 and we have risked assesed the situations and we can still carry out the eyfs on all children?

its mad isnt it cause ruthluss people out there will just take on extra children , risk assese it and not really care about each individual child, some peoople will surley just see it as more money? and Iknow it might not be for new children but I bet they work it so it seems as if its for current children,

[jellybean cc]

At the moment my registration paper says i can have 4 under 8 years . 3 of which can be in the early years age group.

So if one day two of my part timer's overlap for a couple of hours, do i inform OFSTED and do a risk assessment, get parents signature's.

I'm asking because i already know one mum has asked if she can pick up a bit later one day next month as she has a hospital appointment after work which if i agree to will put me over my numbers for about 3/4 hours.

How will what i do next month change in September?

thanks for any help

[sarah707]

?Hmmm! interesting reading and still slightly confusing ...I have just got permission through from Ofsted to take on my assistant and today sent off the variation for increase in numbers, So will I get my variation under old EYFS and will they agree to increase as on one day i will have 4 14 month olds plus a 2 1/2 yr old with my assistant plus my 5 yr old and my assistants 6 yr old before and after school but only after school for assistants child for about 1/2 hr... sounds confusing doesnt it!!! life wouldve been so much easier if i hadnt got to take on sibling plus a temp child has turned permanent !!! worried that variation may take longer as theres the eyfs change over for when i want the variation to take place ...ive asked them to process the matter as a case of urgency as assistant needs to give notice by end of june at her school where she works enabling her to work for me but i cant take her on until i know i have the permission from ofsted to increase no`s..complicated isnt it and it sure has given me sleepless nights but at least i have permission for the assistant in place but have only two weeks to go before assistant gives notice ..aagh,,what do you think will happen ?

At the moment they are granting variations as normal - they are not looking at the new EYFS because the new EYFS will not be law until 1st September.

So any variations now are based on the variations request you sent in.

It will depend on the size of your house, your experience, your assistant's experience, how well you have explained what you want to do in your variations request etc as to how many children they allow each of you to have.

They will allow up to 6 each within the normal ratios (6 under 8 - 3 under 5 of which 1 can be under 1) - but it's not a given.

AFTER September you will continue to work on whatever you are each allowed on your certificates.

I'm afraid you'll have to wait and see what they say.

Hth :D

[sarah707]

and potential we could have 6 children under 5 as long as we dont exceed 6 children under 8 and we have risked assesed the situations and we can still carry out the eyfs on all children?

That's what they are saying at the moment - however they are also keen to point out...

1. variations must be the exception not the norm

2. you will need to show you have discussed it with parents and have their permission to change your numbers

3. your RA will need to show how what you are doing is in the best interests of the children

I feel that more than 1 or maybe at a push 2 extra will be asking for trouble / complaints.

As soon as you get a complaint they will investigate you... if your RA and permissions are not in place you'll be in trouble.

Let's hope that is the case anyway or as you say it's open to huge abuse by people who care about the money more than the children.

Hth :D

[sarah707]

At the moment my registration paper says i can have 4 under 8 years . 3 of which can be in the early years age group.

So if one day two of my part timer's overlap for a couple of hours, do i inform OFSTED and do a risk assessment, get parents signature's.

I'm asking because i already know one mum has asked if she can pick up a bit later one day next month as she has a hospital appointment after work which if i agree to will put me over my numbers for about 3/4 hours.

How will what i do next month change in September?

thanks for any help

If you need an overlap in numbers next month you must apply for a variation as normal - we are still working within the current EYFS.

If there is an emergency overlap which is not covered by a current variation you will need to let Ofsted know in the normal way... and your insurance company because you might not be covered if not working within your current certificate.

From sept 1st you will be able to be flexible within the numbers on your certificate - but you cannot go above them!!

If yours says 4 under 8 and 3 under full time school age then that is your maximum and flexibility (with written RA, permission from parents etc) can only happen within those numbers.

Hth :D

[TooEarlyForGin?]

Thanks very much for your help and advice ladies. But I still think the wording is very contentious. It only mentions siblings babies and your own babies. If a parent has a baby you can be flexible. But I don't read anywhere that it covers for older children or where extra hours are needed and overlaps may happen.

I feel it is an area which really needs more clarification.

I'll let you know if I get a response. :)

[jellybean cc]

Thank you for your help.

[sarah707]

Thanks very much for your help and advice ladies. But I still think the wording is very contentious. It only mentions siblings babies and your own babies. If a parent has a baby you can be flexible. But I don't read anywhere that it covers for older children or where extra hours are needed and overlaps may happen.

I feel it is an area which really needs more clarification.

I'll let you know if I get a response. :)

I sent these questions to Ofsted yesterday - I will of course let you know if I get a reply :D


The following 2 questions seem to be repeating regarding the ratios document -

1. The childminder has 2 children under 1 on their certificate. This is a long standing agreement with Ofsted due to their length of time as a childminder and experience / qualifications.
Can Ofsted clarify whether this will be removed from September and why?

2. The childminder has a child / children of their own within their under 8 ratio. Their child / children stay with their father regularly during the working week or might be on holiday for a week. Can the childminder fill their child’s space?
Or are the childminder’s own children subject to different rules from childminded children?
This has long been a bone of contention with Ofsted variations team from what I understand with different decisions being made over the years. Written clarification would be appreciated.

Thank you!

[Mouse]

One of my mums has approached me about changing the days for siblings I have.

For one day a week I would have 6 EY children for a limited time. I currently have:

A arrives at 8am
B arrives at 8.15am
C arrives at 8.30am
D arrives at 9.30am (current variation in place for all of this)

B then leaves at 10.15am
C leaves at 1.30pm


If I swapped the siblings to this day I would have:

A, E & F arrive at 8am
B at 8.15am
C at 8,30am
D at 9.30am

B leaves at 10.15am
C leaves at 1.30pm

For the main part of the morning I would have 5 children, 6 between 9.30-10.15am. Then for the afternoon, from 1.30pm I would have 4 children.

This would be one day a week, term time only, would be for Sept - July and all the children are over 1. I don't have any school children or over 8s.

I think it fits the criteria. By Sept, all the children will be independent walkers, so evacuating in an emergency would be easier (ie. not having too many to carry). I have sufficient floor space & equipment. We could still get out and about, although not likely with all 6 as there wouldn't be time between the last one arriving & one leaving. We could use the garden easily though. I feel confident that I could give the children the individual care they need. All attend different days as well, so their individual planning would more than likely be done on those days with the busy day being used as more of a free play day.

If I was to fully risk assess it, check with parents, planning dept, insurance etc, do you think it would be within the guidelines?

[Tatjana]

Very informative, thank you.

[lynnfi]

Hello, I have a bit of a tricky question, wish the texts were clearer...
From Sept I would like to grant myself a variation to care for 4 under 5 from noon to 3 three days a week.
This is because my son, 4, will begin Reception part time and not full time. So he will be at school in the morning, but from noon to 3 I will have him + my 3 under 5 (among whom 2 sibblings).

Yet my contract need to be signed now to book the place for the 1st Sept. I have RAs in place + written permission of all parents.

Do I need to still ask Ofsted as contracts are signed now, or since the care will only begins in Sept it will fall under the new EYFS?

Thanks!

[sarah707]

Hello, I have a bit of a tricky question, wish the texts were clearer...
From Sept I would like to grant myself a variation to care for 4 under 5 from noon to 3 three days a week.
This is because my son, 4, will begin Reception part time and not full time. So he will be at school in the morning, but from noon to 3 I will have him + my 3 under 5 (among whom 2 sibblings).

Yet my contract need to be signed now to book the place for the 1st Sept. I have RAs in place + written permission of all parents.

Do I need to still ask Ofsted as contracts are signed now, or since the care will only begins in Sept it will fall under the new EYFS?

Thanks!

There is a question mark at the moment over when the 'self variation' will be allowed to start because a childminder who rang Ofsted recently for information was told that she would not be able to grant herself a variation until she had received her revised registration certificate...

We have been advised that certificates will not be sent out immediately on 1st Sept, we will have to wait for them to arrive.

I am aiming to clarify the situation with my contact early in the week. Until then I cannot give you any specific advice.

:D

[Bluebell]

WOW that really is shocking Sarah. This is hardly increasing availabilty and choice for parents - it is very unfair to childminders - and parents - that they can not even book children in for what is only a few weeks away! Childcare is in desperate shortage here!! There are extremely limited places - 1 nursery and approx 10 childminders. People are trying to sort extra days for continuity of care and siblings coming along needing care and Ofsted seem to have no clue themselves what is happening!
This is a disaster for our business. I have spaces for September but actually is it October when my son is full time - or not at all depending on these clarifications from Ofsted!? Some documentation has led me to believe it will be September but maybe not! Parents need to work they can't rely on ifs, buts and maybes. If it is going to be some time after September, and who knows on what date, then some childminders are going to be at an advantage over others! Childminders are supposed to be professionals and we are all waiting to see what is happening! I've had someone asking for a space in September since FEBRUARY and I still don't know whats happenening - I'm sure I'm not the only one who has parents that need answers!
Sorry if that sounds like I'm ranting but its not like Ofsted have not had time to sort this out!

[PixiePetal]

There is a question mark at the moment over when the 'self variation' will be allowed to start because a childminder who rang Ofsted recently for information was told that she would not be able to grant herself a variation until she had received her revised registration certificate...

We have been advised that certificates will not be sent out immediately on 1st Sept, we will have to wait for them to arrive.

I am aiming to clarify the situation with my contact early in the week. Until then I cannot give you any specific advice.

:D

I was told certificates would be out between Sept and Dec :rolleyes: bit of a long time scale me thinks :(

[sarah707]

I was told certificates would be out between Sept and Dec :rolleyes: bit of a long time scale me thinks :(

The only clarification I am aware of about this from Ofsted is in my variations document where it states that certificates will be sent out 'in stages from September.'

Until this childminder (very well respected btw and she wrote the answer down!!) asked about when she could grant herself a variation and was told 'wait for your certificate first' I must admit I had assumed it would all be in place ready for when the Eyfs starts on 1st Sept.

bear with me and I will ask the question tomorrow.

I wish they'd hurry up with their official guidance :( Though I suppose things like this might still be outstanding they can't possibly answer every variation of every question :(

[PixiePetal]

The only clarification I am aware of about this from Ofsted is in my variations document where it states that certificates will be sent out 'in stages from September.'

Until this childminder (very well respected btw and she wrote the answer down!!) asked about when she could grant herself a variation and was told 'wait for your certificate first' I must admit I had assumed it would all be in place ready for when the Eyfs starts on 1st Sept.

bear with me and I will ask the question tomorrow.

I wish they'd hurry up with their official guidance :( Though I suppose things like this might still be outstanding they can't possibly answer every variation of every question :(

I too thought it would all be in place for when the changes start - silly of me to think that :rolleyes: My answer came from someone on the phone line when I rang to ask the question - mind you he seemed in the dark about most of it and just quoted bit of what I could read myself from the revised requirements - as if I hadn't already looked!

[lynnfi]

[QUOTE=sarah707;1133233]There is a question mark at the moment over when the 'self variation' will be allowed to start because a childminder who rang Ofsted recently for information was told that she would not be able to grant herself a variation until she had received her revised registration certificate...

We have been advised that certificates will not be sent out immediately on 1st Sept, we will have to wait for them to arrive.

I am aiming to clarify the situation with my contact early in the week. Until then I cannot give you any specific advice.

:D[/QUOT


Thank you very much Sarah.

I hope that the person in question had some specific circumstances why she has to wait for a new certificate in order to grant herself the variation!
As if the new EYFS becomes law from the 1st September, then the variations should do as well, it makes sense. Just as it makes sense for us to prepare for this. If we have to be ready for the changes, well imo we have to be ready for the variations as well, hence the signing of contracts in the summer...

If some guidance come up as regards all this, I say it is a bit late for us...

In the meanwhile I think we have to do our best to comply with the new EYFS as we can, and I wonder, with all due respect, if Ofsted do know best sometimes, or if they need some time to adjust as well...

It does not make sense to wait for a new certificate that will just repeat what is already on the old one or am I loosing it?:jump for joy:

[justgoodfriends]

It does not make sense to wait for a new certificate that will just repeat what is already on the old one or am I loosing it?:jump for joy:

The new certificates will not have the Conditions of Registration on.

[sarah707]

Ok right I have an answer...

As justgoodfriends says the new certificates will be different.

They will refer to the EYFS which states that you can care for 6 children under 8 of whom 3 are under 5 and 1 baby within that etc etc etc

Until you have a new certificate you should not change the conditions of your registration so you should continue to work within the current rules.

However, if you do need to change your conditions of registration urgently and you do not have your new certificate and you have done the risk assessment and gone through it with parents and are sure you can meet every child's needs and it is a variation for continuity of care and it is an exception to the norm and you have let Ofsted know you are going to do it then ...

Ofsted say they would not take action if you have not yet had a new certificate.

They also say their guidance is due out this week! :clapping: :D

[Bridey]

However, if you do need to change your conditions of registration urgently and you do not have your new certificate and you have done the risk assessment and gone through it with parents and are sure you can meet every child's needs and it is a variation for continuity of care and it is an exception to the norm and you have let Ofsted know you are going to do it then ...



... and breathe! ;)

Good news on the guidance.

[lynnfi]

Ok right I have an answer...

As justgoodfriends says the new certificates will be different.

They will refer to the EYFS which states that you can care for 6 children under 8 of whom 3 are under 5 and 1 baby within that etc etc etc

Until you have a new certificate you should not change the conditions of your registration so you should continue to work within the current rules.

However, if you do need to change your conditions of registration urgently and you do not have your new certificate and you have done the risk assessment and gone through it with parents and are sure you can meet every child's needs and it is a variation for continuity of care and it is an exception to the norm and you have let Ofsted know you are going to do it then ...

Ofsted say they would not take action if you have not yet had a new certificate.

They also say their guidance is due out this week! :clapping: :D



Thank you Sarah! So I guess I will have to ring them, as I have all the rest. But my little finger tells me their reply might vary according to whom you speak to...
Hope it will be okay.

[lynnfi]

The new certificates will not have the Conditions of Registration on.

What do you mean? Where will these be then?

[lynnfi]

[QUOTE=sarah707;1133687]Ok right I have an answer...

As justgoodfriends says the new certificates will be different.

They will refer to the EYFS which states that you can care for 6 children under 8 of whom 3 are under 5 and 1 baby within that etc etc etc


[COLOR="Navy"]I had no idea they were changing the ages! So this means that when I actually get the now, with all the trouble I went through with granting myself a variation...
If this is a yes I am going to scream for joy as so much easier...

[lynnfi]

My post got cut sorry.

I mean that if the ages have changed, I will actually not need a variation as my son is 4...

[lynnfi]

Did you mean 3 under 5 Sarah?

[sarah707]

Did you mean 3 under 5 Sarah?

Sorry long day! :o xx

[sarah707]

What do you mean? Where will these be then?

The conditions of your registration are written into the EYFS - statutory requirements 3.39 onwards.

You can trust justgoodfriends - she's a friend of mine and knows her stuff! :D

[lynnfi]

The new certificates will not have the Conditions of Registration on.

Didn't mean to contest :), was just shocked because am wondering how the parents will know about numbers etc but I guess they will have access anyway...

[sarah707]

Didn't mean to contest :), was just shocked because am wondering how the parents will know about numbers etc but I guess they will have access anyway...

You are right to ask!

If you are wondering then so are other people :D

[lynnfi]

Sorry long day! :o xx

:crying: For a second I really believed it and was in heaven...

Didn't last though :)

This is a fantastic idea Sarah, 3 under 3s and 3 between 4 and 8... Should be submitted!!!! Would solve everything or almost, for most of us!! :welldone:

Should be writting a petition :laughing::laughing:

[Sweetpea]

Sorry if this has been asked/answered already

My son is going to preschool 2days a week in sept.

Could I :
A) have a new mindee whilst my son is away these two days
B) just do a 'self variation' under the new eyfs for it? With a risk assessment etc

Can't find any answers about variations with changes to your own children, sorry

Thanks

Sweetpea

[sarah707]

Sorry if this has been asked/answered already

My son is going to preschool 2days a week in sept.

Could I :
A) have a new mindee whilst my son is away these two days
B) just do a 'self variation' under the new eyfs for it? With a risk assessment etc

Can't find any answers about variations with changes to your own children, sorry

Thanks

Sweetpea

Ofsted have told me that you can only fill your own child's place if you are absolutely certain the arrangement won't fall through!!

If your child is ill or sent home would you be the one getting him? If so then no, you cannot care for another child in place of him until he is in 10 sessions a week full time school.

Hth :D