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View Full Version : Replies to my questions re 2 year olds in school provission



Penny1959
27-05-2012, 02:15 PM
Yesterday I posted asking if anyone else had heard about the possible changes re2 year olds in school based provision.

This was because a colleague had emailedme with some info.


I have now asked some questions - and my colleague has responded as below.

Hello Penny


Yes I have all same questions - suppose it will all become clear on Wed when the announcement is made

Nick Clegg is suppose to be leading the announcement.


Your questions



Do you mean the schools are going to take in 3 year olds into full time school?
or do you mean into school based nursery?



no you will have 2/3/4 year olds in school nursery provision is my understanding

depending when their birthday is. This is so schools can access the 2 year old funding.

Is this just for your LA area or is it for the whole country?

(no one else seems to of heard of it)



No across the country.

Re the 2 year funding - is this for school nurseries - ie 2 year olds will be in school based nurseries?
If so do you know anything about the ratio's - is it going to be the same as pre schools / day nurseries or will they come under the school ratio's?



Well we will wait and see- preschools could be at risk depending on how their relationship is with schools.

I think schools will have a big shock- however underpressure to do this. Some of our two year olds are only now just beginning to speak. Let alone there will be no sleeping at their own patterns. In real terms they will need to have them in the morning to get the best from them.




When are they talking of implementing this? - if they are having to build - I assume that it will take a while.



I believe where there is capacity it will be implemented asap- sept. Where not there will be some money to make alterations.


****** x


My reaction - oh flip (and a couple of stronger words) What about the children' s needs and being age and stage appropriate? My seond thought was - does all this link t NCMA's undue haste to widen membership? does it link to the suggested agency system for childminders?

Are we begining to see the 'bigger picture'


Penny

loocyloo
27-05-2012, 02:43 PM
this is all very scary, and makes me think that things have been being planned for sometime without actually talking to anyone on the 'shopfloor' as it were.

those poor little children.

uf353432
27-05-2012, 02:49 PM
What is a school nursery?

Is this preschools will be able to take children from 2yrs to offer the free funded places?

But 2yr old funded places are limited no? they are not extending it to all 2 yr olds are they?

Penny1959
27-05-2012, 02:57 PM
What is a school nursery?

Is this preschools will be able to take children from 2yrs to offer the free funded places?

But 2yr old funded places are limited no? they are not extending it to all 2 yr olds are they?

It is part of the school - so in effect classrooms for children under the age of 5. Some areas have them - some don't. It is managed and funded through the school budget and the FE. Thenursery staff are paid by the school.

Usually they offer either morning or afternoon sessions - and prents like them because they THINK it helps secure their child a placeat that school.

Sometimes they offered an extened offer where for a small additional fee the children can attend all day

Penny :)

Mouse
27-05-2012, 03:00 PM
Our school nursery doesn't have space for all the children who want to go there now, so I can't see how they would manage to let even younger children go.

And some of our schools don't have a nursery attached to them at all.

I do agree with what loocyloo said. I've been wondering for a while if these plans have been in place for some time, but kept quiet :mad:

wendywu
27-05-2012, 03:02 PM
What is a school nursery?

Is this preschools will be able to take children from 2yrs to offer the free funded places?

But 2yr old funded places are limited no? they are not extending it to all 2 yr olds are they?

I thought that the 2year old funded places were limited and depended on certain criteria being met.

caz3007
27-05-2012, 03:03 PM
We have a brand new primary opened 2 years ago and it doesnt have the space to take on 2 year olds, the nursery part if you ask me is rather small and cramped, sort of an afterthought, unlike the nursery they had at the old school. Children who attend the nursery arent guaranteed a place and the school itself is oversubscribed.

Just wondering where these 2 year old nursery places will be

uf353432
27-05-2012, 03:05 PM
But 2 year olds are BABIES!!!

I can only just accept that nurseries are ok for 2 yr olds - because I think that they SHOULD be in a home environment in sibling groups - ie a childminder.

Whatever next?

Really really unsettling times.

I guess if they don't have enough spaces to offer the 2yr old provision they have to look outside the box. But have they really explored all the options?

miffy
27-05-2012, 03:20 PM
Our children are just becoming commodities - they are worth money, how sad :(

Miffy xx

Mouse
27-05-2012, 03:21 PM
I'm guessing this will still only be for disadvantaged 2 year olds, not all of them :panic: And that it would only be for the 15hrs a week.

Surely no government will have the money to provide free nursery eductaion to all 2yr olds.

I can see childminders being left to look after babies up to the age of 2 & offering wrap around care for the 2s and above :(

loocyloo
27-05-2012, 03:36 PM
but how on earth can anyone think that a disadvantaged 2 yr old is the right child to take into a school setting? my well adjusted 2 yr olds would struggle on a daily basis!

i have a child on 2 yr funding, who would have shrivelled away into a neurotic heap in a big setting, and lets not even think how LOs mum would have coped ( this mum did a 5 hr settling session :D and has taken, and still takes alot of reassurance that LO is ok. this i can do, as i 'only' have 3 or 4 LO to care for! )

i am also in talks about taking another LO when she turns 2 ... :eek: she would never ever manage in school, well, she might, but only with some very intensive support!

Mouse
27-05-2012, 03:43 PM
but how on earth can anyone think that a disadvantaged 2 yr old is the right child to take into a school setting? my well adjusted 2 yr olds would struggle on a daily basis!

i have a child on 2 yr funding, who would have shrivelled away into a neurotic heap in a big setting, and lets not even think how LOs mum would have coped ( this mum did a 5 hr settling session :D and has taken, and still takes alot of reassurance that LO is ok. this i can do, as i 'only' have 3 or 4 LO to care for! )

i am also in talks about taking another LO when she turns 2 ... :eek: she would never ever manage in school, well, she might, but only with some very intensive support!

That is so true.

I think some of the problem is that few childminders (the perfect setting) offer the 2yr old funded places. I was accepted to offer them, but have never had any vacancies to be able to take a child on.
I suppose the government has made a pledge that a certain percentage of 2yr olds will receive funding, so to meet their targets they have to find the spaces from somewhere - never mind what's actually right for the children :(

loocyloo
27-05-2012, 03:47 PM
i am lucky, that i can wiggle things to take on each individual funded 2 yr old. i would only have 1 a day though, as they can be twice the amount of work.

there are very few childminders in my area able to take these children, although i hear that it is being rolled out for all childminders.

Penny1959
27-05-2012, 03:56 PM
My colleague has now phoned

She says the government do not have enough places for the expected rise in 2 year old places needed

I know this is true - in my area (different to my colleague) they are going to have to find around another 1000 2 year old places over the next couple of years - and this is why they have reduced all the old criteria for becoming accredited chilminder - as they hope that cms will provide the places.

She says in her local school they do not have enough space - but that at the meeting they were talking about temporary buildings (portacabins?) - again I know these are usedand acceptable as at my local school the school uses them AND the local independant pre school that has its portacabins in the school grounds.

I suppose before we all panic too much and worry about the children in this country - we should wait for Wednesday - and see if their is an annoucement - because although it was someone from a national organisation telling my colleague this (and the others in the room) there is a possibility that she has got her facts muddled.

My colleague will not have her fats muddled - she will have told me them as she heard them.

Penny :)

uf353432
27-05-2012, 04:02 PM
i guess they will view it as 'something' is better than 'nothing' as long as these plans don't interrupt the progress of better plans - like bringing on board more childminders in area's then as an interim it might be the only possible option. As long as they don't reach numbers and then say ah well we've done that now - and forget that these were never ideal in the first place.

AgentTink
27-05-2012, 04:03 PM
This kind of starts to explain why they have talked about us been deregulated.

If all three and four years old get 15 hours a week education and now 45% ish of disadvantaged children at 2 will have free education, then actually childminders are being classed simply as being just care givers. The thinking must be that the other 55% of 2 years old will be fine just being "cared for" until they are three.

I suppose the new eyfs backs this up as it states that under 3's must mainly have free play with a adult around for support. So actually all they need is a safe environment were they are cared for.

How on earth does our country have so many disadvantaged children? What makes a child classed as disadvantaged?

It apparently does not seem to matter that research suggests that children shouldn't have such formal education from a young age. What are we doing to the children of our future.

In our area the 3 schools local to me have no room for any 2 year olds, as they struggle to give all 3/4 years old a space. They would have to build additional classrooms to fit them in, so I'm not too sure who would fund that.

Penny1959
27-05-2012, 04:14 PM
. They would have to build additional classrooms to fit them in, so I'm not too sure who would fund that.

It seems that has been thought of and plans are at an advance stage to secure the funding.

Also the legal bods just have to fine tune the required changes to the wording for 2 year olds to be in school nurseries.

Penny

wendywu
27-05-2012, 04:17 PM
Maybe deregulating us and allowing us to take on more under 5s is the goverments way of getting us to take on the 2 year olds that get free funding.

In our area we are always full. The hourly rate for the funding is less than the going rate. So no one is going to take on a child for 15 hours a week at a lesser rate in place of a full time child full time. :(:(

uf353432
27-05-2012, 04:18 PM
As an accredited childminder I have never actually lost a child at 3 to go to preschool - i've lost some hours - but most of my parents see the benefit of both the large and small group dynamics the preschool and I offer and see it as complimentary care and education. Because I offer minimum 2 hours care - all my work is part time and so i've always filled my spaces.

I think more childminders should become accredited so that parents don't have to go down the preschool route - because in my area lots of parents still value childminders all the way up to walking them into the first day at school.

Saying that there can't be a demand for 2yr old funding local to me because i've never been approached to offer it by my LA, nor have any other childminders locally. I might ask about it though.

uf353432
27-05-2012, 04:20 PM
Maybe deregulating us and allowing us to take on more under 5s is the goverments way of getting us to take on the 2 year olds that get free funding.

In our area we are always full. The hourly rate for the funding is less than the going rate. So no one is going to take on a child for 15 hours a week at a lesser rate in place of a full time child full time. :(:(

yes I agree about this - once I offer over 20 hours of funded hours I start making a loss on my hourly rate.

Though I did come home yesterday to a invitation to attend a workshop to consult on a new formula in our area - so I live in hope that they have taken our complaints seriously!

Penny1959
27-05-2012, 04:23 PM
Maybe deregulating us and allowing us to take on more under 5s is the goverments way of getting us to take on the 2 year olds that get free funding.

In our area we are always full. The hourly rate for the funding is less than the going rate. So no one is going to take on a child for 15 hours a week at a lesser rate in place of a full time child full time. :(:(

Wenduwu - my head is buzzing with all the different bits of information that we have - and the synical side of me says - mmmm - it was all decided long ago (years) and while we have all been jumping through hoops the government have been planning to 'get rid' of us.


I hope I am wrong - very wrong because I would rather stand on my famous soap box and tell the world that I was wrong - than have a future were chldminders revert to being babysitters and two year olds are in school settings (because as we all know school nurseries are far too formal and large for 2 year olds)

Going to email a few people I know - who might know more

Penny

mum26
27-05-2012, 04:50 PM
That would be good Penny - to have more information. I certainly do not want to be regarded as a 'babysitter' and, of course, have reduced fees for my services.

I have been on a briefing session last week regarding the 2 year old funding in our area. We have been told that it will only be available for disadvantaged 2 year olds - however they are expecting a big take-up over the next few years and we were told our local authority are wanting childminders to play a large part in this as they recognise that home from home care is ideal for this age group. To this end network childminders and also childminders who have a level 3 qualification will be able to access 2 year old funding, once they have been accepted onto the scheme. It was also said that the funding can now be taken as an extended offer - which means that pre-schools may consider opening in the holidays if they are able.

This all seems so confusing - on the one hand we are being told that we are highly regarded and then on the other hand there seems to be plans to completely alter the way we are able to operate.

rickysmiths
27-05-2012, 04:54 PM
Poor children and poor teachers. Not only will they have more nappies to contend with but non talkers as well.


I think its like the original introduction of Nursery vouchers and then 3year old funding, the government see it as a way to give free childcare so mums can go back to work. The parents will go for it because so many pushy parents seem to think their children 'Learn' more at Day Nurseries than at a childminders, so if they are offered proper school they will be over the moon. They seem to think (around here anyway) that they want their children in an environment with lots of children and learning as early as possible because its good for them?

Less well off will go for it because its free and they know what school is.

I fear in a big way for this generation of forced children.

It saddens me that all the common sense seems to have gone out of parenting and hot housing is the in thing, my children's generation are suffering from the pressure from GCSEs through to the end of Uni if they go. Now we want to start the institutionalising from 2years old. Crazy.

I have had two two year olds in the last year who would be worn out by the end of a term and being stimulated so much would not be the right thing.

Why don't we let our children be children and get out and about and experience the world around them before we commit them to the same four walls everyday.

blue bear
27-05-2012, 05:07 PM
we don't have school nurseries here, its all childcare on non domestic premises and as such they are all registered for 2-4 year old's or 1-4 year old's.

we live in a high poverty area and the take up of 2 year old places is predicted to be high.

When a two year old application goes to the board they make a decision on the type of provision would be best for the child, they tell us their preference is for childminders because of the low adult to child ratio and because many of these children need to sample 'normal' family happenings.

Unfortunetly there are not many childminders eligible to take on these two year old's as you need an nvq3 and take extra training provided lea. I am the only one in my town. Here you have to ring the lea and volunteer to be on the scheme apparently they don't contact you (they did me)

Work here is quite low with lots of minders and nurseries/pre schools with vacancies, its only going to get worse with lots of two year old's getting places in nurseries under the vulnerable two year old scheme.

Our LEA pay us higher than the going rate per hour and are very supportive, my experience has been positive.

uf353432
27-05-2012, 05:25 PM
That would be good Penny - to have more information. I certainly do not want to be regarded as a 'babysitter' and, of course, have reduced fees for my services.

I have been on a briefing session last week regarding the 2 year old funding in our area. We have been told that it will only be available for disadvantaged 2 year olds - however they are expecting a big take-up over the next few years and we were told our local authority are wanting childminders to play a large part in this as they recognise that home from home care is ideal for this age group. To this end network childminders and also childminders who have a level 3 qualification will be able to access 2 year old funding, once they have been accepted onto the scheme. It was also said that the funding can now be taken as an extended offer - which means that pre-schools may consider opening in the holidays if they are able.

This all seems so confusing - on the one hand we are being told that we are highly regarded and then on the other hand there seems to be plans to completely alter the way we are able to operate.

I fully expect that to be the way it runs here as well - the notes suggest that we will be able to operate outside of the 38 weeks as well - which in essence is good for me - If I don't have capacity in term - I can then offer it in holidays. I can't imagine many of the preschools operating in school holidays round here - the nursery I can see will benefit as well as childminders

sarahjane
27-05-2012, 05:32 PM
I think more childminders should become accredited so that parents don't have to go down the preschool route - because in my area lots of parents still value childminders all the way up to walking them into the first day at school.
.
I would love to be accredited, and indeed went through the whole process despite the fact my local authority only pay £3.10 per hour compared to my usual £4 per hour. I flew through the whole process with flying colours only to stumble at the last block when they decided that my Montessori Qualification which is equivalent to a Level 3 did not meet all their criteria!

I am now left with the option of doing my complete level 3 and paying for it myself as there is no funding or not becoming accredited. I can't afford to pay therefore that is the end of that. So they have lost someone with a good Qualification who is good at her job because they can't see past the red tape and be flexible.

uf353432
27-05-2012, 05:44 PM
I would love to be accredited, and indeed went through the whole process despite the fact my local authority only pay £3.10 per hour compared to my usual £4 per hour. I flew through the whole process with flying colours only to stumble at the last block when they decided that my Montessori Qualification which is equivalent to a Level 3 did not meet all their criteria!

I am now left with the option of doing my complete level 3 and paying for it myself as there is no funding or not becoming accredited. I can't afford to pay therefore that is the end of that. So they have lost someone with a good Qualification who is good at her job because they can't see past the red tape and be flexible.

Thats ridiculous - see that is essence is the problem - GREAT childminders being prevented from adding to the supply because of tight LA restrictions - at least if they relax that a bit - then LA's can use their own local knowledge as to whom might be suitable rather than having a checklist.

Heaven Scent
27-05-2012, 05:46 PM
we don't have school nurseries here, its all childcare on non domestic premises and as such they are all registered for 2-4 year old's or 1-4 year old's.

we live in a high poverty area and the take up of 2 year old places is predicted to be high.

When a two year old application goes to the board they make a decision on the type of provision would be best for the child, they tell us their preference is for childminders because of the low adult to child ratio and because many of these children need to sample 'normal' family happenings.

Unfortunetly there are not many childminders eligible to take on these two year old's as you need an nvq3 and take extra training provided lea. I am the only one in my town. Here you have to ring the lea and volunteer to be on the scheme apparently they don't contact you (they did me)

Work here is quite low with lots of minders and nurseries/pre schools with vacancies, its only going to get worse with lots of two year old's getting places in nurseries under the vulnerable two year old scheme.

Our LEA pay us higher than the going rate per hour and are very supportive, my experience has been positive.

I wonder how they can do that our LA pay £3.25 ph plus 20p ph for being flexible then 5p ph for having outstanding - I think they pay another 25p for having one of their recognised teaching qualifications but that is it they told us it was nationwide and there was no movement in it at all. I think someone was telling us porky pies and have been skimming off some of that money to subsidise another budget!!! :idea::idea:

Penny1959
27-05-2012, 06:07 PM
I wonder how they can do that our LA pay £3.25 ph plus 20p ph for being flexible then 5p ph for having outstanding - I think they pay another 25p for having one of their recognised teaching qualifications but that is it they told us it was nationwide and there was no movement in it at all. I think someone was telling us porky pies and have been skimming off some of that money to subsidise another budget!!! :idea::idea:

You may be right HS - fro my expoerience they all pay a different rate! And nothing to do with 'going rate' in the area


Penny :)

loocyloo
27-05-2012, 06:23 PM
North Yorkshire pay £4.85/hr for 2 yr olds, and its limited to the 15 hrs of term time weeks, although 'i think' i read/heard something about being able to spread that care out over the whole year , making it 11 hrs or something a week?

i know have been recommended for the children i have had, as being the right place to go, gently socialising, lots of support, experiencing family life etc, then at 3, they tend to move on to nursery. i'm waiting to see what my current mum wants to do when LO turns 3.

SYLVIA
27-05-2012, 09:11 PM
Am I reading this wrong. Are 2,3&4 year olds all getting 15 hours free. If so will we not be able to charge for those hours if we drop and collect, Because thats what I do now. Or are they going to be there all day? I AM GETTING SO CONFUSED with all this information!

Monkey26
27-05-2012, 09:22 PM
I offer funding to 2, 3 and 4 year olds... The only children to have ever accessed this are 3 year olds who have already been in my care for several months/years. I have never had a child come to me specifically because I offer funded places and I haven't been approached at all regarding 2year old places so hmmmmmm is all I have to say at this point :D x

loocyloo
27-05-2012, 09:23 PM
3&4 yr olds get 15 hrs of nursery grant (ie FREE to parents - nursery/CM get paid by LA) a week, termtime.
disadvantaged 2 yr olds WILL get 15hrs of funded sessions ( again FREE to parents - nursery/CM get paid by LA) a week termtime. but not all 2 yr olds. the families need to match certain criteria, which i think is linked to children being eligible for free school meals, child or parent having a learning disability, and i can't remember the rest :blush: i'm not sure when this is rolling out nationwide, might be this september, but i'm in north yorkshire and my area have been piloting the scheme for the past year, and i know scarborough have been piloting for the past 2 years, along with other, mainly inner city areas.

if i had a mindee who i had before & after nursery, who was accessing their funded sessions, i would still charge whilst they were there.

Penny1959
27-05-2012, 09:39 PM
National roll out for 2 year olds (still disadvantaged) is from September. New code of practice out any minute - expecting to be able to offer over an extendedperiod of time - but not full year - again from September.

Also expected that 'organisations' will be able to tender to LA to provide the framework for offering the FE - so a group of cm's could form an orgnisation and have their own network offering the FE - of course the LA will still decide if tender is approved - so it may not be as easy as it sounds - but would fit in with the agency model - and them accessing the FE for the cm's in the agency.

Penny :)

miffy
27-05-2012, 09:47 PM
Very interesting penny but not sure cm's should rush to form an organisation or the powers that be might think we're coming round to their agency idea :rolleyes:

I have been told that in Notts alone 600 places are needed but it's not clear where they will arise.

Miffy xx

Penny1959
27-05-2012, 10:28 PM
Very interesting penny but not sure cm's should rush to form an organisation or the powers that be might think we're coming round to their agency idea :rolleyes:

I have been told that in Notts alone 600 places are needed but it's not clear where they will arise.

Miffy xx

Indeed Miffy - however if we are quick we could form the sort of agency idea that I have in my head - and beat ET to it.

Waiting for code of practice to be out before going ahead with anything more than outline ideas - but lets just say individual inspections would stay and agency fees would be just to cover costs

Penny :)

wendywu
27-05-2012, 10:46 PM
You see where we are 30 min direct line to London my parents all work up town.

So its a 50 to 55 hour week , they earn too much to get any funding and even if they did they would still have to find a minder to cover the remaining 40 hours per week. If i covered this i would still want paying for the full 55 hours.

I think to get the 2 year old funding parents have to earn less than £16000 per year per couple.

So they would only want to use a minder for the 3 free hours per day. They would not be able to afford any extra hours. With out being mean not really viable.

That is why not many minders are taking the funding up in surrey.:(

miffy
28-05-2012, 06:51 AM
Indeed Miffy - however if we are quick we could form the sort of agency idea that I have in my head - and beat ET to it.

Waiting for code of practice to be out before going ahead with anything more than outline ideas - but lets just say individual inspections would stay and agency fees would be just to cover costs

Penny :)

Not sure I'd want to jump before I was pushed BUT cake inspections sound highly preferable to what ET's suggested so far - will read your plans with interest Penny

Miffy xx

md0u0131
28-05-2012, 06:53 AM
I guess we'll see what Wednesday brings. I have to say I don't have a good feeling about it :(

Roseolivia
28-05-2012, 06:58 AM
We had a childminders meeting last week and were told there is currently funding for deprived 2yr olds to access NFE (not sure how many hours). From Sept 2013 it will be open to all 2yrs old whether they're from a deprived area or not (i think this is what DO was saying). Our local childcare team are really good with us childminders and are pushing for us to have the 2yr olds.

loocyloo
29-05-2012, 08:27 AM
just been talking to my DO, who has talked to the CHIEF of northyorks, they haven't particuarly heard anything about this, but nurseries in north yorkshire will NOT be taking 2 yr olds! not in the near future - couldn't say about the distant future, but will not be something they encourage as not the appropriate setting for 2 yr olds :D

Penny1959
29-05-2012, 08:55 AM
just been talking to my DO, who has talked to the CHIEF of northyorks, they haven't particuarly heard anything about this, but nurseries in north yorkshire will NOT be taking 2 yr olds! not in the near future - couldn't say about the distant future, but will not be something they encourage as not the appropriate setting for 2 yr olds :D

Thank goodness - someone with common sense and an understanding of young children


Penny :)

Penny1959
29-05-2012, 09:01 AM
Not sure I'd want to jump before I was pushed BUT cake inspections sound highly preferable to what ET's suggested so far - will read your plans with interest Penny

Miffy xx

Miffy from what I have read this morning - and from conversation with many non childminding proffessionals - I think cake inspections are about the most sensible suggestion being discussed

See my post on another good idea from government.

I am now expanding my idea to make sure I (and my forum friends) run the CC and if possible on the cake idea!

Seriously though - I think we still have not had the 'big picture' and who knows what we will end up with

Penny :)

marnieb
29-05-2012, 10:34 AM
I spoke to dd's pre-school, and they had no idea what i was on about, so they know nothing.

from what i read in the paper yesterday and my own thoughts following all of this on here, this is what i think is going to happen.

2 yr olds offerd 15 hrs a week, BUT can be in any form, so the government want pre-schools etc to offer 2 or 3 full days, ie 7 .5 hrs a day.

So, child X goes to pre-school Mon & Tues,

Weds, Thurs & Fri X goes to a cm, but under the proposals we are supposedly charging less, so X's parents are able to work 5 days a week, pay for 3 days childcare at a lesser rate than now.

Any more thoughts???

SYLVIA
29-05-2012, 06:55 PM
7.5 hours is longer than a full time school day. Pre-school will have to change its set up to cope with 2 year olds doing that many hours.

wendywu
29-05-2012, 09:34 PM
Errrr just how long is it until the next general election :angry: