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View Full Version : Anyone got a handle on variation criteria from sept 2012



uf353432
22-05-2012, 09:23 PM
I have had an enquiry for 2 mornings from Sept from a lady with twin 2 yr olds.

I have 1 space.

Am I right in thinking that even though they would be new business I could agree to the contract because they are twin siblings?

I don't want to get her to come round under false pretences.

Thanks

miffy
22-05-2012, 09:27 PM
This one's still up in the air I think.

Phone Ofsted and see what they say (then tell us)

Seriously though, if you ring and say you need to apply for a variation from Sept it would be interesting whether they say you can sort it yourself or not

Miffy xx

Penny1959
22-05-2012, 09:28 PM
That would be my understanding - it is clear about siblings.

I would say write your own variation report - about why need to exceed numbers and how will meet all the children's needs.

If you discusswith other parents jot that down as well.

Penny :)

nipper
22-05-2012, 09:30 PM
:confused:

sarah707
22-05-2012, 09:34 PM
That would be my understanding - it is clear about siblings.

I would say write your own variation report - about why need to exceed numbers and how will meet all the children's needs.

If you discusswith other parents jot that down as well.

Penny :)

I understood there was still a question mark over siblings - do they mean sibling babies (twins under 1) or do they mean siblings as in baby brothers or sisters of older children??

I don't believe this has been fully clarified yet :rolleyes:

Have I missed something?

I asked them about a week ago and they told me to wait for further guidance..... :D

miffy
22-05-2012, 09:36 PM
I thought Ofsted were producing guidance in the next couple of months - I'd wait for this

Miffy xx

uf353432
22-05-2012, 09:38 PM
Ok - if I was asking for the variation now - would it be approved? Its new business but I can't take one without the other, and I have space for 1 - so would the 2nd sibling be classed as continuity of care?

miffy
22-05-2012, 09:43 PM
Ok - if I was asking for the variation now - would it be approved? Its new business but I can't take one without the other, and I have space for 1 - so would the 2nd sibling be classed as continuity of care?

Ofsted may well say no as it is new business unless you could show there were no other suitable places for both children in the area.

You could always apply now for a variation saying the start date is before 1 September, that way Ofsted would have to make a decision or you could take a gamble and wait.

Miffy xx

Penny1959
22-05-2012, 09:50 PM
Ok - if I was asking for the variation now - would it be approved? Its new business but I can't take one without the other, and I have space for 1 - so would the 2nd sibling be classed as continuity of care?

Phone them and ask - usually they allow a variation for twins.

In my other reply - I forgot to add - would taking the twins mean you would exceed 6 under 8 in total - as that appears to be the over riding factor - from Sept 12 - no more than 6 under 8's.

Still waiting a reply from Ofsted contact re the continuity of care question.

Penny :)

uf353432
22-05-2012, 09:56 PM
No I would only have 4 in my care, I currently have a variation for 2 different days already for 4 under 5, as I have had for most of the last 3 years on different days.

miffy
22-05-2012, 09:56 PM
Phone them and ask - usually they allow a variation for twins.

In my other reply - I forgot to add - would taking the twins mean you would exceed 6 under 8 in total - as that appears to be the over riding factor - from Sept 12 - no more than 6 under 8's.

Still waiting a reply from Ofsted contact re the continuity of care question.

Penny :)

Penny, I think no more than 6 under 8 is also the over-riding factor now.

Hope you get a reply re continuity of care soon

Miffy xx

Penny1959
22-05-2012, 10:32 PM
Penny, I think no more than 6 under 8 is also the over-riding factor now.
Hope you get a reply re continuity of care soon

Miffy xx

Not according to the certificate on my wall - I can have 4 under 5 and if I wanted to 3 over 5's (not that I do want to)

But doi realise that even certificates are not always standard!


Penny :)

mrstom
23-05-2012, 06:07 AM
This one's still up in the air I think.

Phone Ofsted and see what they say (then tell us)

Seriously though, if you ring and say you need to apply for a variation from Sept it would be interesting whether they say you can sort it yourself or not

Miffy xx

I rang them yesterday - I will need a variation for ONE day in September to allow me to have two under one. The advisor I spoke to said that as it would be in sept that I no longer had to ask for a variation. I'd need to risk assess and check that I would be able to meet each child's needs but apart from that, nothing! I tried to explain that it would be for new business but he didn't really want to hear and just reiterated that I wouldn't need a variation.

I also asked if I needed to let them know about my own son who turns 5 at the very beginning of sept and they said no as my certificate wouldn't have numbers on it anyway.

I'm slightly worried now that not having to apply for variations will cause some of the ahem, less belt and braces minders, to just ram children in regardless of whether they could cope or not.

Mouse
23-05-2012, 06:19 AM
Ok - if I was asking for the variation now - would it be approved? Its new business but I can't take one without the other, and I have space for 1 - so would the 2nd sibling be classed as continuity of care?

Someone local applied for something similar recently and was turned down. Slightly different though as they were siblings but not twins.

They were told they couldn't cite continuity of care unless they already looked after one of the children. It didn't count for 2 new children when there was only one space available. Their way round it was to take on one child to start with then apply for a variation for continuity for the other :thumbsup:

miffy
23-05-2012, 06:36 AM
Not according to the certificate on my wall - I can have 4 under 5 and if I wanted to 3 over 5's (not that I do want to)

But doi realise that even certificates are not always standard!


Penny :)

Then I would say your certificate is wrong.

According to the present EYFS (page 51)

"Each childminder may care for:

a maximum of six children under the age of eight"

Miffy xx

CH1957
23-05-2012, 06:43 AM
I need a variation from June and I was told by my DO to apply before the end of June because thats when the new guidence will be published and I might not get it if I wait - its for continuity of care.
Maybe they already know something we dont, but she is still telling us that we cannot just take on what children we like even if its within our numbers when the new EYFS comes into force.
Im definately confused!

miffy
23-05-2012, 06:57 AM
I need a variation from June and I was told by my DO to apply before the end of June because thats when the new guidence will be published and I might not get it if I wait - its for continuity of care.
Maybe they already know something we dont, but she is still telling us that we cannot just take on what children we like even if its within our numbers when the new EYFS comes into force.
Im definately confused!

Your DO is right as things stand atm, there are still criteria attached to whether or not you can care for extra children (continuity of care isn't mentioned in new eyfs whether deliberately or by mistake is still not clear) - the difference (it seems) is we will not have to apply to Ofsted to decide about a variation we can make that decision ourselves as long as it's within the criteria.

Miffy xx

rickysmiths
23-05-2012, 07:09 AM
I need a variation from June and I was told by my DO to apply before the end of June because thats when the new guidence will be published and I might not get it if I wait - its for continuity of care.
Maybe they already know something we dont, but she is still telling us that we cannot just take on what children we like even if its within our numbers when the new EYFS comes into force.
Im definately confused!

I would say she is wrong. Ofsted will have to continue to give Variations to cover us up to the 31st August because like us the old EYFS rule apply until then.

They may publish the Guidance for the new EYFS in June but it won't apply until the 1 Sept.

Heaven Scent
23-05-2012, 07:37 AM
I spoke to a gentleman at Ofsted on Monday and he said that the revised EYFS will be out about mid July. And hopefully the DOE will have sorted out all the problems with it. The man I spoke to suggested we speak to the DOE about the continuity of care issue.

rickysmiths
23-05-2012, 07:58 AM
I spoke to a gentleman at Ofsted on Monday and he said that the revised EYFS will be out about mid July. And hopefully the DOE will have sorted out all the problems with it. The man I spoke to suggested we speak to the DOE about the continuity of care issue.

Miffy did this and there is a thread with the reply she got from DOE

Penny1959
23-05-2012, 08:06 AM
Then I would say your certificate is wrong.

According to the present EYFS (page 51)

"Each childminder may care for:

a maximum of six children under the age of eight"

Miffy xx

You are right Miffy that is the 'standard' numbers as in the current EYFS

I in my case it is the variation that allows this.

it says (under the standard first bit about six under 8's blah blah)

' may exceed this ratio to allow 4 childrenin the early years age group for the children named on the variation request ........ this exception applies until one of these named children is no longer in the early years age group or cared for by the childminder'

When I applied for the variation it clearly said that I had occassional care of my grandson (under 8 at the time and 2 school age children about to start).


It may well be that who ever agreed to variation made a mistake - but it is not the first time that I have had such a variation. In fact I do know of others that have had similar variation - ie already have 6 under 8's in their care and given a variation for a sibling.

Not saying it is right - mistakes do happen - but it is strange that a mistake has happened so often.

In all cases - up to now we have been issued with a certificate to say what has been agreed - my worry in the future is that some may abuse the system - however in the future my current allowed numbers could not happen as would be breaking the 6 under 8's rule and there will be no exceptions to this rule - so in someways will be clearer.

And in my case the two school children did not stay long - and I decided it was too much hard work doing a school run so no longer have school children - apart from occassional my grandson who is now over 8.

Penny:)

mum2two
23-05-2012, 08:22 AM
Penny I would double check with ofsted, as they made a mistake with my certificate last year too, and when the inspector who granted it called me back, she did say if I had of been working to the numbers, then I would have been working illegally, even though I did everything right.

I had asked for a variation for 4 under 5 two days a week, between 9-2. My certificate came back saying at all times:

may care for no more than 4 under 8, of these no more than 4 may be in the early years group.

There was nothing about as per the variation request etc etc as normal which is why I queried it, as could I then take on an extra child on the other days???

Nope - ofsted had messed up!! I had it at a previous inspection too, where ofsted had changed their wording, but not changed my cert, so the inspector told me I was working over my numbers.

I had to dig out my variation request form, to show her what I had asked for (and been granted - just wording had changed), and she was being inspected, and so her manager went over it, for about half an hour. In the end she agreed she wouldn't mark me as 'inadequate' as it was ofsted's mistake....

I would just double check to be on the safe side.

xx

loocyloo
23-05-2012, 08:30 AM
i too, was once granted a variation to have 4 under 5, and was still allowed the 3 5-8s and when i queried it, i was told that the 6 under 8 bit had been left off my certifictae by mistake and it is 6 under 8 REGARDLESS of any extenuating circumstances.

Mouse
23-05-2012, 08:35 AM
You are right Miffy that is the 'standard' numbers as in the current EYFS

I in my case it is the variation that allows this.

it says (under the standard first bit about six under 8's blah blah)

' may exceed this ratio to allow 4 childrenin the early years age group for the children named on the variation request ........ this exception applies until one of these named children is no longer in the early years age group or cared for by the childminder'

When I applied for the variation it clearly said that I had occassional care of my grandson (under 8 at the time and 2 school age children about to start).


It may well be that who ever agreed to variation made a mistake - but it is not the first time that I have had such a variation. In fact I do know of others that have had similar variation - ie already have 6 under 8's in their care and given a variation for a sibling.

Not saying it is right - mistakes do happen - but it is strange that a mistake has happened so often.

In all cases - up to now we have been issued with a certificate to say what has been agreed - my worry in the future is that some may abuse the system - however in the future my current allowed numbers could not happen as would be breaking the 6 under 8's rule and there will be no exceptions to this rule - so in someways will be clearer.

And in my case the two school children did not stay long - and I decided it was too much hard work doing a school run so no longer have school children - apart from occassional my grandson who is now over 8.

Penny:)

My understanding is that you can only have a maximum of 6 under 8 at any one time. So if you have a variation for 4 in the EY age group you have to drop one of your numbers in the older age bracket.
If your certificate said you could have 6 under 8, that's all you should ever have had. It seems a common misunderstanding that you can increase your total number under 8. If it says 6 on your certificate, that is the maximum. The fact you can have 4 in the EYFS simply alters the way the numbers are split, it doesn't allow an extra child under 8.
We had a local cm who made that mistake - had a variation so had 4 in the EYFS and 3 over. It was picked up at her inspection and she had to give notice to one family to bring her back to 6 under 8s.

dette
23-05-2012, 08:52 AM
You are right Miffy that is the 'standard' numbers as in the current EYFS

I in my case it is the variation that allows this.

it says (under the standard first bit about six under 8's blah blah)

' may exceed this ratio to allow 4 childrenin the early years age group for the children named on the variation request ........ this exception applies until one of these named children is no longer in the early years age group or cared for by the childminder'

When I applied for the variation it clearly said that I had occassional care of my grandson (under 8 at the time and 2 school age children about to start).


It may well be that who ever agreed to variation made a mistake - but it is not the first time that I have had such a variation. In fact I do know of others that have had similar variation - ie already have 6 under 8's in their care and given a variation for a sibling.

Not saying it is right - mistakes do happen - but it is strange that a mistake has happened so often.

In all cases - up to now we have been issued with a certificate to say what has been agreed - my worry in the future is that some may abuse the system - however in the future my current allowed numbers could not happen as would be breaking the 6 under 8's rule and there will be no exceptions to this rule - so in someways will be clearer.

And in my case the two school children did not stay long - and I decided it was too much hard work doing a school run so no longer have school children - apart from occassional my grandson who is now over 8.

Penny:)

I am in similar situation as i have my stepson every other day ,he's 7.
my certificate states ; "must reduce the registered numbers by the number of any children for whom you are responsible and who are present during the hours in which you childmind"
THis should have been added to yours too i think