Telegraph article saying increasing under 5s from caring for 3 up to 5!!!

[Sweetpea]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/9277971/British-childcare-among-most-expensive-in-the-world.html

This article not only says about deregulation of childminders but uncreasing our under 5s to looking after 5 instead of 3!!!

[loocyloo]

:eek: (although i do have 4 some days, and to have 5 would be useful ;) )

however, not everyday!

plus, i think this is their way of 'selling' it to us, and then slipping alot of other things along with it :(

there was a mention of this on radio 2 news this morning and i've emailed jeremy vine, as its something i think they may discuss! email him! http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/shows/jeremy-vine/contact/

we have got to be vocal and public about this. the time has passed to be complaining on here!

[sarahjane]

If things carry on like this then I for one will be giving up. I can hardly scrape by financially as it is. I have had vacancies for over a year, so not sure where the extra 2 are going to appear from not to mention it can be stressful enough to look after 3 children let alone 5! Quite how they expect us to get out and about with that many smalls I don't know!
They want us to lower our fee's and work nearly twice as hard :rolleyes:

[Chimps Childminding]

If things carry on like this then I for one will be giving up. I can hardly scrape by financially as it is. I have had vacancies for over a year, so not sure where the extra 2 are going to appear from not to mention it can be stressful enough to look after 3 children let alone 5! Quite how they expect us to get out and about with that many smalls I don't know!
They want us to lower our fee's and work nearly twice as hard :rolleyes:

Have to agree! I certainly don't want to be reducing my fees and having to take on more children to make the money back up :angry: I find 3 hard enough, and I only do that 1 day a week at present, I certainly don't want to have to have 5 to earn the same money:panic:

[rickysmiths]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/9277971/British-childcare-among-most-expensive-in-the-world.html

This article not only says about deregulation of childminders but uncreasing our under 5s to looking after 5 instead of 3!!!

And they are going to sunsidise us all having a seven seater then are they :rolleyes: How can our fees be less if we have to buy a more expensive car and pay more for car tax, insurance, petrol and servicing??????

[watgem]

me too sarahjayne, i don't think childminders charge their worth, we are all aware of the costs to parents so try to keep our prices reasonable, but at the end of the day we do have to earn a living the same as everyone else.I'm not happy about taking on lots of little ones and increasing my work load and compromising health,safety and well being in order that I can charge parents less, to earn the same amount iyswim,and then having to pay 10% of my low income to an agency for the privilege. Parents leave their most treasured possessions with us, which is a huge responsibility and as one of my lovely parents pointed out it costs her more to kennel her dog!
where can we find out more about this, I've tried asking my DO but she is keeping very quiet.

[Sweetpea]

Ooops I meant increasing

[BucksCM]

And they are going to sunsidise us all having a seven seater then are they :rolleyes: How can our fees be less if we have to buy a more expensive car and pay more for car tax, insurance, petrol and servicing??????

Just what I was thinking!!

[uf353432]

We could look at the article in a different way:

The article says that childminders are cheaper and more flexible childcare options - but its the reduction in childminders that is forcing parents into nurseries which are more expensive.

I'm not sure that they want to make childminders cut their hourly rates but create more childminders which takes children out of nurseries and forces nurseries to reduce THEIR costs for childcare.

[caz3007]

We could look at the article in a different way:

The article says that childminders are cheaper and more flexible childcare options - but its the reduction in childminders that is forcing parents into nurseries which are more expensive.

I'm not sure that they want to make childminders cut their hourly rates but create more childminders which takes children out of nurseries and forces nurseries to reduce THEIR costs for childcare.

I read it as more like you had suggested uf, that they are making more childminder spaces available using the existing registered childminders. Mind you in my area its a struggle filling two places let alone 5 and that comes from most other CM's that live on the outskirts of our town

[JCrakers]

I still want to know how I would manage 5 children under 5yrs. How would you get out to the park safely? I just don't get it. I have 4 on a Thursday while we walk from preschool to school. I have two in a buggy and the other two holding on each side...where's the other one supposed to go?

Would I be confined to the house? Yes
Would I go insane from no adult interaction? Yes
Would this make me depressed and hate my job? Yes

Also Where would these extra children come from because at the moment I'm struggling to find 3 EY children never mind 5. I have to go out and get business myself, I've had no phonecalls about childcare in 2 yrs :eek:
I have to show my face at toddler groups in order for parents to see I'm a childminder...the council never pass my number on.
Plus we have about 7 nurseries in my town which are full. Parents automatically choose these nurseries so childminders are struggling here.
We have about 30 childminders probably more and whenever I bump into one around town they all tell me how business is slow.

How is it going to get busier to enable us to have 5 children. Most of my wages are made up with school children but if I had 5 EY hildren I wouldn't need school children, my dd is old enough to walk herself but what about childminders with young children who have to be picked up from school, how would you get there with 5 little ones, walking or driving?..it all sounds rather bizarre :rolleyes:

[Mouse]

I think we have got a real battle on our hands now.

The problem is, childminders who post on forums and are more actively interested in all things childminding tend to have more passion about their job and see it as more than a way to earn a bit of extra pocket money. But we sometimes forget, when posting on a forum of like-minded childminders, that not ALL childminders share our views.

I would find it hard work with 5 under 5s, but then I do a lot with the three or 4 I have and to increase what I do to include an extra child would be hard. The only way I could do it would be to reduce the amount I do. For those who are happy to have 5 children, but do very little, it must sound tempting.

Talking at our group, there are 2 cms who really struggle for work. It's no wonder when you see their homes & the little they do. No parent is going to pay £35 a day (the going rate round here) to send a child there. But I guess plenty would overlook the conditions & lack of activities if they were only paying £15 or £20. There's no reason the say the children wouldn't be well cared for, but they wouldn't be stimulated or in the nicest environment.

It's not only government we're up against, but other childminders who will welcome de-regulation. That's what worries me.

[JCrakers]

I think we have got a real battle on our hands now.

The problem is, childminders who post on forums and are more actively interested in all things childminding tend to have more passion about their job and see it as more than a way to earn a bit of extra pocket money. But we sometimes forget, when posting on a forum of like-minded childminders, that not ALL childminders share our views.

I would find it hard work with 5 under 5s, but then I do a lot with the three or 4 I have and to increase what I do to include an extra child would be hard. The only way I could do it would be to reduce the amount I do. For those who are happy to have 5 children, but do very little, it must sound tempting.

Talking at our group, there are 2 cms who really struggle for work. It's no wonder when you see their homes & the little they do. No parent is going to pay £35 a day (the going rate round here) to send a child there. But I guess plenty would overlook the conditions & lack of activities if they were only paying £15 or £20. There's no reason the say the children wouldn't be well cared for, but they wouldn't be stimulated or in the nicest environment.

It's not only government we're up against, but other childminders who will welcome de-regulation. That's what worries me.

Well said.. A lot of the childminders in my town will welcome the deregulation as most of them complain about the paperwork. They will see it as a way to go back to what it was before.
I am fully qualified and I like the professionalism that comes with childminding even thou it's not fully recognised. I want to hold my head up when I go out with the children and I want people to know this is my proffession not something I do to fill time.
I don't particularly want to work in a nursery because i believe home based care is better but will probably be pushed into it of anything happens with the changes.

[uf353432]

As much as I am getting stressed about this whole situation - I am also feeling really sorry for the early years workforce who support childcare settings in the local authorities - this agency model - using nurseries as the agency, what about all those highly skilled LA bods? what will happen to them?

Yes I think we all have ALOT to be worried about. It stinks right now.

[Mouse]

As much as I am getting stressed about this whole situation - I am also feeling really sorry for the early years workforce who support childcare settings in the local authorities - this agency model - using nurseries as the agency, what about all those highly skilled LA bods? what will happen to them?

Yes I think we all have ALOT to be worried about. It stinks right now.

We only have one part-time early years worker now in the LA. She is newly appointed & most of us have yet to see her, or even had an email introduction. I don't even know her name. Unless they were to take on more staff, there is no way she could manage to inspect childminders, plus she has no experience of how cms work. Much as I'd hate the idea of a nursery inspecting me, as things stand, there's no way our LA could do it.

[uf353432]

this is the problem- our LA have an amazing workforce - we are very lucky. Going to a nursery would be a HUGE step down in this area - since there is only 1 and most childminders have a better grade through Ofsted. Plus it is a private business - which would result in a conflict of interests! No thanks!

[pipandbaz]

What gets me is people say childcare is expensive but its not when you consider on average its £4 per hour for a child not a dog! It's the jobs parents have with poor wages that's the problem. My husband earned more when he left school than he does now! :rolleyes:

[Mouse]

this is the problem- our LA have an amazing workforce - we are very lucky. Going to a nursery would be a HUGE step down in this area - since there is only 1 and most childminders have a better grade through Ofsted. Plus it is a private business - which would result in a conflict of interests! No thanks!

Until recently we had a fab early years team as well. Mostly ex-childminders who really worked hard for us. Sadly cuts meant they all went. I would have been happy enough having them inspect us.
None of the nurseries around here have got higher than a good grading, with most being satisfactory. The childminders, as a whole, are much better graded. I certainly wouldn't want any of the nurseries inspecting me :panic:

[caz3007]

Do you think outsourcing the inspections hasnt been as cost effective as thats obviously the reason they did it and now they are looking for another way. I dont think its the case that they feel we are charging parents too much, its the fact they dont want to pay for inspecting us.

I will lose my full timer if I cant have tax credits paid to me and I know it will devastate the mum and LO, as mum saw this as a long term arrangment until mindie doesnt need childcare, she is 2 now.

[SYLVIA]

I was on a work shop at the weekend and the early years team mentioned that there were big changes in their department, but they couldn't talk about it of course! It was a revised EYFS workshop and the whole time I was wondering what was the point if in a short while this won't apply to us! I like being part of the professional side of child care and running my own business and don't relish some of these changes

[loocyloo]

elizabeth truss was back tracking a bit on jeremy vine ... apparently she doesn't mean that childminders will have 5 children all the time, but to allow 5 when there is an overlap at pickup/drop off times/lunchtime etc !

[julie w]

My biggest problem would be that nearly all my mindees parents receive tax credits towards childcare. If we are not ofsted registered this money will stop and they will have to look for a nursery for care. This is quite a poorly paid area and people just dont have money to pay for childcare, or theyd be financially better off not working.

[The Juggler]

I think we have got a real battle on our hands now.

The problem is, childminders who post on forums and are more actively interested in all things childminding tend to have more passion about their job and see it as more than a way to earn a bit of extra pocket money. But we sometimes forget, when posting on a forum of like-minded childminders, that not ALL childminders share our views.

I would find it hard work with 5 under 5s, but then I do a lot with the three or 4 I have and to increase what I do to include an extra child would be hard. The only way I could do it would be to reduce the amount I do. For those who are happy to have 5 children, but do very little, it must sound tempting.

Talking at our group, there are 2 cms who really struggle for work. It's no wonder when you see their homes & the little they do. No parent is going to pay £35 a day (the going rate round here) to send a child there. But I guess plenty would overlook the conditions & lack of activities if they were only paying £15 or £20. There's no reason the say the children wouldn't be well cared for, but they wouldn't be stimulated or in the nicest environment.

It's not only government we're up against, but other childminders who will welcome de-regulation. That's what worries me.

exactly, me too. Mouse you have said exactly what I was thinking. I have four now (for the first time). The extra money is very welcome but I DON'T feel like I'm offering the experiences I normally do at this time of year. With 2 babies, it's hard doing seed planting and gardening as I'm watching what the babies are putting in their mouths etc, etc. The babies sleep but the pre-schoolers also nap at the same time so they are not getting as much out of me as I would like.

If I had 5 I would find activities extremely difficult but as you say for those minders who don't do much anyway it's not a problem - althuogh I imagine 5 understimulated littlies would be much harder as there would be more arguments etc, etc. The other downside is parents who love one minder would recommend and becuase said minder can now have 5 children, even more other minders would end up with empty spaces :(

[uf353432]

elizabeth truss was back tracking a bit on jeremy vine ... apparently she doesn't mean that childminders will have 5 children all the time, but to allow 5 when there is an overlap at pickup/drop off times/lunchtime etc !

*sigh* Elizabeth Trust - see now even her name is an oxymoron!!

[clorogue]

Does anyone know when changes are planned or is it all up in the air at the moment?

[onceinabluemoon]

Having the ability to have five under five doesn't mean we have to have five under five. I had four under five and still did all the stuff I do with 3 under five. You don't need a 7 seater car - catch the bus like I do! I don't think I would want to have five, but there are times when it would be useful, for example I have some spaces that are back to back, it would be useful that I didn't have to worry about a parent being late...

Don't want to be deregulated though. :(

[sarahjane]

Having the ability to have five under five doesn't mean we have to have five under five. I had four under five and still did all the stuff I do with 3 under five. You don't need a 7 seater car - catch the bus like I do! I don't think I would want to have five, but there are times when it would be useful, for example I have some spaces that are back to back, it would be useful that I didn't have to worry about a parent being late...

Don't want to be deregulated though. :(
I too have had 4 under 5 in the past but only to accommodate siblings. I would not want to do it 5 days a week.
Sometimes a bus isn't the answer, I do a school run to a local village which is 4 miles away and there is no bus service to it, the buses round here are extortionate as well, so cost would be massive.
If they would like us to reduce our fees as has been suggested then I would have to increase my numbers as as a single parent I only just manage as things stand.

[uf353432]

catch the bus like I do! (

I would - but for the fact that my rural community doesn't have a great bus route - they cut the service as part of council cuts. So I could leave for the day trip in the morning and be able to return sometime next week :laughing:

[Mouse]

Having the ability to have five under five doesn't mean we have to have five under five. I had four under five and still did all the stuff I do with 3 under five. You don't need a 7 seater car - catch the bus like I do! I don't think I would want to have five, but there are times when it would be useful, for example I have some spaces that are back to back, it would be useful that I didn't have to worry about a parent being late...

Don't want to be deregulated though. :(

The problem is if there is a lot of competition & our prices are driven down, it won't make it worthwhile only having 3 children. If my fees dropped I would need the extra children to make up my money.

[singingcactus]

Well said.. A lot of the childminders in my town will welcome the deregulation as most of them complain about the paperwork. They will see it as a way to go back to what it was before.


Just wondering how you view 'what it was before'. I'm seeing a lot of minders who have been registered during the reign of ofsted talking down minders who were registered with social services before ofsted. But those minders have no experience of what it was like to be a minder back then. I know I was certainly a professional childcare provider and was treated as such by all my parents, all the staff and users of our local community centre, by the nursery unit I dropped off and picked up from, by all the schools I dropped of and picked up from, by the doctors and the health visitors etc. I provided good quality care back then as I do now. Ofsted had and still have nothing to do with the quality of care I provide. They only affect my paperwork, as I now have to prove to someone with no interest in my children or their families that I do in fact provide outstanding care. Once ofsted have gone from childminding I will still be providing outstanding care to my children and their families.

[The Juggler]

Just wondering how you view 'what it was before'. I'm seeing a lot of minders who have been registered during the reign of ofsted talking down minders who were registered with social services before ofsted. But those minders have no experience of what it was like to be a minder back then. I know I was certainly a professional childcare provider and was treated as such by all my parents, all the staff and users of our local community centre, by the nursery unit I dropped off and picked up from, by all the schools I dropped of and picked up from, by the doctors and the health visitors etc. I provided good quality care back then as I do now. Ofsted had and still have nothing to do with the quality of care I provide. They only affect my paperwork, as I now have to prove to someone with no interest in my children or their families that I do in fact provide outstanding care. Once ofsted have gone from childminding I will still be providing outstanding care to my children and their families.


i think there were always fantastic, high quality minders out there cactus but there were always a percentage who were not. I think that the one thing EYFS and ofsted have done is force those minders who did nothing pre-ofsted/EYFS to actually have to have some evidence and to get that evidence they actually have to interact with the children.

I loved my child's first minder, she was lovely but thinking back to what care he had, was he cared for? yes, did she give him affection? yes. was he very stimulated? No. would I go back to choosing all day long c-beebies and as many biscuits as he wanted when hungry ?- no .. Would I choose a minder who really genuinely, didn't know that she shouldn't have 4 children in teh back seat of her car without car seats, including my one year old sittin gon the lap of her 10 year old? No:panic:

I think the changes have just made those who 'got away with it' have to learn and do something which all round is better for those children. Some minders will always want to learn and do the best anyway - but not all :)

[miffy]

The problem is if there is a lot of competition & our prices are driven down, it won't make it worthwhile only having 3 children. If my fees dropped I would need the extra children to make up my money.

I wouldnt want to be put in this position either :(

Miffy xx

[JCrakers]

Just wondering how you view 'what it was before'. I'm seeing a lot of minders who have been registered during the reign of ofsted talking down minders who were registered with social services before ofsted. But those minders have no experience of what it was like to be a minder back then. I know I was certainly a professional childcare provider and was treated as such by all my parents, all the staff and users of our local community centre, by the nursery unit I dropped off and picked up from, by all the schools I dropped of and picked up from, by the doctors and the health visitors etc. I provided good quality care back then as I do now. Ofsted had and still have nothing to do with the quality of care I provide. They only affect my paperwork, as I now have to prove to someone with no interest in my children or their families that I do in fact provide outstanding care. Once ofsted have gone from childminding I will still be providing outstanding care to my children and their families.

Before eyfs I mean...not putting down anyone. I've spoken to local childminders who have minded for 20yrs and they all said they preferred it when it was 'just looking after the children' their words not mine. No observations, no ofsted etc :D

[loocyloo]

Before eyfs I mean...not putting down anyone. I've spoken to local childminders who have minded for 20yrs and they all said they preferred it when it was 'just looking after the children' their words not mine. No observations, no ofsted etc :D

i know childminders like that too.

however, i was a nanny for 14 years before i became a childminder ( and ofsted were already involved when i registered ) but when nannying, i always kept a daily diary for the children, and although i didn't do formal written observations, i took lots of photos,which went in the diary or a scrapbook, along with copies of art work etc, and i used my child development knowledge to move the children exactly the same as i do now. except that now i say what area it covers in a quick scribbled note!

the minders i know that preferred it, didn't actually ( and still don't ) do anything with their children apart for endless coffee shops/mornings and shopping! i once had a minder tell me i didn't need to go and feed the ducks, or walks in the woods, or visit the library as thats what they should be doing with their parents :eek:

[onceinabluemoon]

Sorry, I didn't mean to cause offence by my 'catch the bus' comment. It was meant to be sort of tongue in cheek, not rude. :(

I don't have a car, or have the use of a car - ever - so can't imagine not being able to manage without one as I've never had the luxury of having one IYSWIM.

[Mouse]

Sorry, I didn't mean to cause offence by my 'catch the bus' comment. It was meant to be sort of tongue in cheek, not rude. :(

I don't have a car, or have the use of a car - ever - so can't imagine not being able to manage without one as I've never had the luxury of having one IYSWIM.

I don't drive, but with 5 children of my own plus mindees we've always managed to get out all over the place. I think it's one of those things you can't imagine doing unless you actually do it!
We are lucky to have a good bus route very close by though :thumbsup:

[wendywu]

[
QUOTE=JCrakers;1103677]Before eyfs I mean...not putting down anyone. I've spoken to local childminders who have minded for 20yrs and they all said they preferred it when it was 'just looking after the children' their words not mine. No observations, no ofsted etc :D

[/QUOTE]

Im pre EYFS and it was better back then. With Social Services you knew everyone and they knew you and more important they knew your children.

We still did a daily dairy and scrap book for every child and all the activities. All this paper work for Ofsted is to prove to them that we actually do everything that we have been doing all along.

Well thats the case in my situation.

But i still want to be registered but with less paperwork. :thumbsup:

[JCrakers]

I used to be a nanny in London and all I did was look after the children :D I loved it. No paperwork or anything.
But being a childminder is different. I looked after two children then, now I have to constantly advertise and think ahead to who's leaving, who can I fill a space with, where can I advertise etc. when I was a nanny, I went to an agency, they sent me for interviews, parents paid £500+ to the agency and I worked for the family for a number of years.

Working with lots of families instead of 1 is harder. People aren't so keen to leave their children with people they don't know so parents are choosing nurseries in my town.
The only children that attend are children of people who have recommended me. Parents friends etc.
If I was to be de-regulated I feel it would make parents minds up even more so to go with a nursery. A regulated nursery or a childminder that's not registered.

I find it constantly hard to find children. When I'm very low on kids I have to sell myself at toddler groups, make myself known by all the parents. I've had no calls from the local council for 2yrs. All my work has come from families I already know, and so far I've been lucky and I am more or less full.

So if I was allowed to take more children on, where would these children come from? Would they appear and suddenly I'd have lots of phonecalls?
Other childminders may lower their prices and Then i would have to do the same to keep in line.
I would like to cut down on the paperwork but also I like the eyfs status we have.

[uf353432]

Sorry, I didn't mean to cause offence by my 'catch the bus' comment. It was meant to be sort of tongue in cheek, not rude. :(

I don't have a car, or have the use of a car - ever - so can't imagine not being able to manage without one as I've never had the luxury of having one IYSWIM.

I didn't see it as rude - hope you didn't think I was being narky - cos I wasn't.

I think it just shows how the same changes will present different problems for different people for different reasons - som have cars, some don't, some have access to public transport more than others, some have large houses that can accomodate more childre, some can't, etc.